Author Topic: Five PCNs - parked outside my gym.  (Read 707 times)

0 Members and 0 Guests are viewing this topic.

Driver1010

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 42
  • Karma: +0/-0
    • View Profile
Five PCNs - parked outside my gym.
« on: March 17, 2024, 12:47:38 pm »
Hi all,

I’ve been issued 5 PCNs from Euro Parking Services.

I go to my gym 5 mornings a week and usually park in an area right next to my gym.

In the 3 years I’ve been at my gym, the building next to my gym has never been in use. Early in Feb, I think I saw a sign stating something about registering your number plate at a Kiosk in the office. Going to the gym in the mornings means that it is very dark and as the font is SO small on the sign, I didn’t read it in depth.

I’ve now accumulated 5 different parking tickets for where I have been parking (I’ve been parking in that space for years!). It is seemingly now owned by offices in that building.

The first ‘contravention’ was on 26/2/24 but it wasn’t registered or posted until 7/3/24. If I had received the letters promptly, I would have stopped parking there.

The latest fine has been from 6th March (issued on 12th and posted on 12th), and I’m sure I’ve parked there a lot more since then, so more fines to come…

I’ve appealed the signage, to which they rejected. They said I can complain, simply said ‘go to our website’ where are digging and digging, I found an address but that’s their only method of complaint. That or an 0845 number…not even an email.

Anything I can do?
« Last Edit: March 17, 2024, 12:54:50 pm by Driver1010 »

Share on Facebook Share on Twitter


DWMB2

  • Moderator
  • *****
  • Posts: 736
  • Karma: +19/-0
    • View Profile
Re: Five PCNs - parked outside my gym.
« Reply #1 on: March 17, 2024, 01:14:27 pm »
A couple of starter points to help us help you:
  • Assuming the wording is the same for each notice, please upload a copy of one of the notices using a third party site like Imgur, redact personal info and the PCN number but leave everything else intact
  • Please confirm if you appealed each PCN separately
  • Please show us the exact wording of your appeal
  • Please show us photos of the signage at the site - ideally a close up of the terms and conditions, a photo of any entrance signage, and photos showing the layout of signage and its visibility
  • If you can send us a link to the location on Google Maps this might also be useful

If any more arrive, come here before appealing.
[/list]

Driver1010

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 42
  • Karma: +0/-0
    • View Profile
Re: Five PCNs - parked outside my gym.
« Reply #2 on: March 17, 2024, 01:21:45 pm »
Hi. Here is the PCN https://imgur.com/a/62TRRmA
 Wording is the same
I have appealed 4 out of the 5

My argument was unclear signage (font is incredibly small and I go during dark mornings).

The new office does not open until 9am and I leave gym around 8am, so no disturbance to them.

The images they provide are of signs I absolutely have not seen before.


Driver1010

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 42
  • Karma: +0/-0
    • View Profile
Re: Five PCNs - parked outside my gym.
« Reply #3 on: March 17, 2024, 02:01:56 pm »
Right?! For all 5 PCNs, two images are provided with some sort of 10-14 min gap. No idea why.

DWMB2

  • Moderator
  • *****
  • Posts: 736
  • Karma: +19/-0
    • View Profile
Re: Five PCNs - parked outside my gym.
« Reply #4 on: March 17, 2024, 02:10:46 pm »
We need to see photos of the signs as mentioned further up.

A problem with the cameras might not give rise to a "get out of jail free" card, especially if it's the case that the vehicle was actually there longer than is claimed.

Driver1010

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 42
  • Karma: +0/-0
    • View Profile
Re: Five PCNs - parked outside my gym.
« Reply #5 on: March 17, 2024, 02:17:05 pm »
I can provide an image of the sign I park near tomorrow, but this is what they 'took a picture of' and uploaded to the online PCN. I think this is similar to the sign I park near, but can't confirm exactly. The sign is quite high up on a post, too.

Driver1010

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 42
  • Karma: +0/-0
    • View Profile
Re: Five PCNs - parked outside my gym.
« Reply #6 on: March 17, 2024, 02:20:51 pm »
Perhaps a needed note: the company in which the driver allegedly incorrectly parked there, does not open until 9am meaning that the numberplate is unable to be registered at the kiosk.

The driver arrives around 6:10am and leaves around 8am each day.

DWMB2

  • Moderator
  • *****
  • Posts: 736
  • Karma: +19/-0
    • View Profile
Re: Five PCNs - parked outside my gym.
« Reply #7 on: March 17, 2024, 02:32:07 pm »
Quote
Perhaps a needed note: the company in which the driver allegedly incorrectly parked there, does not open until 9am meaning that the numberplate is unable to be registered at the kiosk.
The parking company will seek to make this argument in their favour - the car park is for staff and visitors of the business, and as it was closed, the driver was clearly neither, and therefore not permitted to park.

However, a sign that offers parking to staff and customers only could be argued to be 'forbidding', as it doesn't seem to offer any consideration to those who are not staff or customers.

Photos of the layout of the signage will help to identify any arguments about a lack of prominence of the signage.

Both arguments above (forbidding signage, and not very visible signage) may have legs, but would likely need to be argued in court, as neither the parking company nor the IAS are likely to agree.

Driver1010

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 42
  • Karma: +0/-0
    • View Profile
Re: Five PCNs - parked outside my gym.
« Reply #8 on: March 17, 2024, 02:34:34 pm »
Makes sense, thanks.

I assume there is no retribution for the fact that the PCNs were issued 1 week after each contravention and therefore allowed the driver to accumulate fines?

The driver is looking at around 10 PCNs in total coming to £600.

b789

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 327
  • Karma: +5/-0
    • View Profile
Re: Five PCNs - parked outside my gym.
« Reply #9 on: March 17, 2024, 03:20:25 pm »
If these are new terms and conditions for parking at this location, the operator is required under Schedule 1 (Signage) of the IPC CoP:

Quote
Changes in Operator's Terms and Conditions

Where there is any change to any pre-existing terms and conditions that would not be immediately apparent to a person visiting the Car Park and which materially affects the Motorist the Operator should place additional (temporary) notices at the entrance making it clear that new terms and conditions/charges apply, such that regular visitors who may be familiar with the old terms do not inadvertently incur Parking Charges. Notices should be in addition to the signage ordinarily required and left in place for an appropriate period.

Whilst typical of the scamming nature of the IPC members, "appropriate period" is not defined. However, should this ever need to go in front of a judge, the lack of definition could be compared to the same requirement under the BPA CoP which is defined as "a period of not less than 4 months".

Interestingly, in the latest IPC CoP v9, section 25, Legal and Additional Obligations:

Quote
25.1 The Code complements the relevant legislation and related guidance, which will define the overall standard of conduct for all Operators. Operators must be aware of their legal obligations and implement the relevant legislation and guidance when operating their businesses.

Examples of relevant law and guidance within this sector are:

a) Consumer Protection Law;
b) Contract Law;
c) The Data Protection Act / The General Data Protection Regulation (EU) 2016/679;
d) Equalities Act 2010;
e) Occupier's liability both in statute and tort;
f) Parking (Code of Practice) Act 2019;
g) Protection of Freedoms Act 2012, including Schedule 4;
h) Tort of trespass.

Whilst the PPCoP Act may be temporarily withdrawn, if the ATA says that the operator has an "obligation" and a requirement to implement relevant guidance, then they should be following such "guidance" as is intended to be implemented in law.

The (temporarily) withdrawn PPCoP section 3.4 states:

Quote
3.4 Material change – notices

Where there is any material change to any pre-existing terms and conditions that would not be immediately apparent to a driver entering controlled land that is or has been open for public parking, the parking operator must place additional (temporary) notices at the site entrance for a period of not less than 4 months from the date of the change making it clear that new terms and conditions/charges apply, such that regular visitors who might be familiar with the old terms do not inadvertently incur parking charges.

Examples of material changes can include introduction of parking enforcement where none has previously applied, introduction of time-limited free parking, or reductions in the time limit within which free parking is available. Given the need to avoid confusion and clutter at entrances the test is whether the fact that a change has been made is clearly signalled to drivers on entering the land and the nature of the change is clearly displayed thereafter - it may also be necessary to install repeater notices depending on the scale of the premises.

https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/private-parking-code-of-practice/private-parking-code-of-practice

Whilst the PPCoP is not retrospective, all non-monetary clauses are unchallenged by the parking industry. The DLUHC PPCoP will replace the self-serving BPA & IPC CoPs, which are not regulatory and carry limited weight. In a clear steer for the Courts and for the avoidance of doubt, the DLUHC say they are addressing ‘market failure’.
« Last Edit: March 17, 2024, 03:27:05 pm by b789 »

Driver1010

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 42
  • Karma: +0/-0
    • View Profile
Re: Five PCNs - parked outside my gym.
« Reply #10 on: March 17, 2024, 03:25:45 pm »
This is really interesting! There is absolutely no sign upon the enterance. The sign is only near the parking space. There are also two signs (the same) next to each other.

It also does not clearly state which spaces it means.

Let me try and find a Google Maps image to demonstrate where the new signs are.

From the PCN, it seems as if the other signs are near the enterances of the office…to which are on the other side of the building.

Further, this may be noteworthy, bollards were erected a few months ago but there was only one day that they were ever up.

In addition, there are numerous gym members I have been trying to warn about this. We’ve been getting numerous PCNs all at once.

Driver1010

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 42
  • Karma: +0/-0
    • View Profile
Re: Five PCNs - parked outside my gym.
« Reply #11 on: March 17, 2024, 03:30:32 pm »
Enterance to the gym and red lines indicate where the signs are. I do not recall when exactly the signs were put up, but I very much doubt it has been 4 months.

Note: Google Maps images is 5 years old. Parking sign in attached images are no longer there. I may make the drive there today and show you all rather than waiting until I inevitably go tomorrow morning.

b789

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 327
  • Karma: +5/-0
    • View Profile
Re: Five PCNs - parked outside my gym.
« Reply #12 on: March 17, 2024, 03:34:46 pm »
@Driver1010, you must understand that appealing to the operator and then to the IAS will be exercises in futility. Normally, there are 4 plans of action:

Plan A: Get the landowner or business that contracted the PPC to tell their agent to cancel the PCN.

Plan B: Appeal to the PPC. Meh!  ???

Plan C: Appeal to the PPCs IAS (The IAS in this case. POPLA for a BPA member). Double meh!  >:(

Plan D: Have an truly independent arbiter, a judge in the small claims court, decide whether you owe a debt to the PPC.

Invariably, with IPC operators, Plan D is ultimately where you will win this. Ideally, Plan A is the easiest option and should be tried first. What has the Gym management said to you about it? Have you complained to them and told them that you (and many other members) are likely to take your business elsewhere if you are going to receive a speculative invoice for £100 from an unregulated private parking company every time you visit the gym.

Try and get up to date images of all the relevant signage.
« Last Edit: March 17, 2024, 03:37:17 pm by b789 »

b789

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 327
  • Karma: +5/-0
    • View Profile
Re: Five PCNs - parked outside my gym.
« Reply #13 on: March 17, 2024, 03:47:14 pm »
The entrance sign (No unauthorised parking) has been in place at least since August 2016. When you say "the building next to my gym", are you saying that you were not parking in the gym car park but in another area at that location?

Driver1010

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 42
  • Karma: +0/-0
    • View Profile
Re: Five PCNs - parked outside my gym.
« Reply #14 on: March 17, 2024, 03:50:06 pm »
Thank you, truly, for your advice.

While I have been to small claims court before (and won), this is a very daunting aspect. However, I am actually due to be moving country in 6 months time. Will a court case be solved by then?! At the end of the day, EPS have 8k definition pictures of me.

I definitely do plan to contact the company (Jardines) tomorrow. Although, I am bracing for a clear cut ‘nothing we can do’. Do they have power to cancel the PCN? Who do I need to speak to?

My gym are useless regarding this. All they say is ‘we have put up signs saying which ones are JD parking and which ones aren’t’, which, in their defense they have but it is at the entrance and looks completely the same as before. Seemed like they were just reasserting the rules rather than making it clear that rules had changed.

I’ll get signage images later today!