Author Topic: Fine for being less than 10 mins in car park where you can't read maximum free stay time from road.  (Read 1206 times)

0 Members and 60 Guests are viewing this topic.

I received a fine for stopping in a car park for 9 minutes from parking eye. You cannot see that there is no "maximum free stay time" from the road (as the car park is down an alley off a high street) and the driver personally never left the car park in that 9 minutes. There appears to be no amount of time that you can enter this car park for free which is completely unreasonable as at best you cannot pass each other down the alley so you'd have to enter the car park to turn around! The driver got into the car park, looked at the signage, realised it wasn't free, got back in the car, googled directions of where to go and then left.

Do I stand a chance on an appeal of this? If so how do I maximise my chances? Really can't afford this fine at the moment  :'(

[ Guests cannot view attachments ]
« Last Edit: May 27, 2024, 08:06:37 pm by Ge12356 »

Share on Bluesky Share on Facebook


To help us to help you, please read the following thread carefully and provide as much of the information requested as you are able to: READ THIS FIRST - Private Parking Charges Forum guide.

The back of the notice would also be useful.

Additional info attached - back of the paperwork, the entrance to the car park.

https://maps.app.goo.gl/7w3uoiTnnn52yRCv6

Link here to maps to show street view/how you certainly can't turn around once you've committed to entering the car park.

[ Guests cannot view attachments ]

You cannot see that there is no "maximum free stay time" from the road (as the car park is down an alley off a high street) and the driver personally never left the car park in that 9 minutes. There appears to be no amount of time that you can enter this car park for free which is completely unreasonable

Do I stand a chance on an appeal of this? If so how do I maximise my chances? Really can't afford this fine at the moment  :'(
PE will allow a 5 minutes grace for a driver to enter, read the signs and leave if they decline the contract. Exceed that 5 minutes and you'll get an invoice (not a fine).

It matters not what the driver did, if the signs were 'there to be seen' and the driver chose not to read them then that's on them. The driver seems to have been aware they were entering a private car park so is expected to look for and read the signs on display.

PE have met the requirements to hold the keeper liable and are one of the most litigious, so to defend this in court you would have to show that either the signs in the car park were not there to be seen or that it would reasonably take 9 minutes (or more) to enter, read, decide not to stay and leave.
There are motorists who have been scammed and those who are yet to be scammed!

PE have met the requirements to hold the keeper liable and are one of the most litigious, so to defend this in court you would have to show that either the signs in the car park were not there to be seen or that it would reasonably take 9 minutes (or more) to enter, read, decide not to stay and leave.
Where is the invitation for the keeper to pay the charge? PoFA 9(2)(e)(i) is missing from the NtK so the keeper must not reveal the identity of the driver.

Whilst PE are litigious, these days they are easily beaten. If they have no faith in their chances at court they will farm it out to DCB Legal which means a discontinuation if all the steps required are properly carried out.

Even if it goes to court in their own name, they will have breached PoFA 4(5) as they add on £25 these days and that is an abise of process.

For now, Plans A, B and C should be in operation. Show us what you intend to send to PE as your Plan B appeal.

Why were you at the location for 9 minutes? Surely it doesn't take that long to enter the car park, even if it is just to let another car pass and then leave. Were you a customer of the business that owns the car park?
« Last Edit: May 28, 2024, 12:01:34 pm by b789 »
Never argue with stupid people. They will drag you down to their level and then beat you with experience” - Mark Twain


Where is the invitation for the keeper to pay the charge? PoFA 9(2)(e)(i) is missing from the NtK so the keeper must not reveal the identity of the driver.

The PoFA paragraph on the back is generally considered to be 'god enough' for keeper liability (noting a lack of case law to date), nothing in Schedule 4 says it has to be explicit, I doubt that will win at POPLA.
There are motorists who have been scammed and those who are yet to be scammed!

I respectfully disagree. It has been won at POPLA in the past although I do not have the case to hand.

The whole point is that you have to lead the POPLA assessor by the nose to the point being made. Just mentioning it without explaining it in the format of a Janet and John book for early readers  is not going to be good enough.

In order to pursue a keeper under PoFA, an operator must comply with the strict requirements for keeper liability set out in the Act. Partial or even substantial compliance is insufficient.

Whilst a POPLA assessor may not agree and consider that the NtK is "good enough" without all the requirements of the Act being complied with, a judge in court would have to take it into consideration and base a decision on the facts. The fact is that if the NtK does not fully comply with the requirements of the Act, then it is not compliant and the keeper cannot be liable, only the driver.
Never argue with stupid people. They will drag you down to their level and then beat you with experience” - Mark Twain

If something is likely to win at POPLA it would be mad not to argue it.

I personally have little experience and less interest in what arguments are currently favoured by POPLA assessors, but for the vast majority of OPs, if trying to get the landowner/occupier to intervene doesn't work, a strong POPLA appeal is their best chance at the easiest win, regardless of what legal merit the argument has.

In law (as in if it goes to court), whether or not a particular statutory requirement is "mandatory" or "merely directory" is a matter for the courts to decide. Unless and until there is binding case law on the point, it will be up to individual courts to decide.

In Pope v Clarke the Divisional Court found that whilst the requirement to serve a NIP within the 14 days was mandatory, the required details were merely directory - if the recipient was not disadvantaged by an error, the NIP was not invalidated. This decision applies to NIPs required by what is now s. 1 RTOA 1988, and not necessarily to other seemingly similar requirements, but I challenge anyone who asserts that the requirements of Schedule 4 as to the content of the notice must be strictly adhered to, on the grounds that they say so, to distinguish the judgment in Pope v Clarke using the language of the statute or some binding or persuasive authority (other than they themselves posting the word "strict" in bold).

<mod hat on>
Anyone who claims that the literal interpretation of a given statutory provision is the only interpretation (unless it is so well worded that there is no other viable interpretation) without a binding authority is talking bollox. Much like the proverbial broken clock, they might be right twice a day - a court might well adopt the same interpretation - or it might not.
I have better things to do with my time than tidying up spouted bollox. It is far simpler to delete the post, or the poster.
</>
I am responsible for the accuracy of the information I post, not your ability to comprehend it.
Agree Agree x 1 View List