Author Topic: Driver or Passenger? Observed Leaving Site  (Read 2028 times)

0 Members and 33 Guests are viewing this topic.

Re: Driver or Passenger? Observed Leaving Site
« Reply #15 on: »
Apologies for not ticking the public box on Google drive - please see publicly accessible copy of the documents with missing page of the site boundary included here (site boundary is not displayed at the site) …


https://drive.google.com/file/d/1EOnQp2dN8j8jtBGGDnO7BNpJz9eZnzJT/view?usp=sharing

The picture on the NTK showed son exiting the car next to the restaurant. His defence did not state that he had parked and then visited the restaurant, just that he had visited the restaurant on other occasions and was thus ’a customer’ of the restaurant, & his understanding was that the offer of parking (and thus of a contract) was not extended to the restaurant’s staff or customers (see the big red section in the middle) so it was not even possible that he could have breached any agreed terms under any circumstances at all. In any event, additional pictures in claimants WS show him walking away from the car and not towards the restaurant. The site boundary is not displayed at the site, only in WS.

Nothing on the sign mentions passengers leaving the site.

The hearing is scheduled for 3rd July and the claimant paid the hearing fee on 20th May (before receiving our witness statements).

Re: Driver or Passenger? Observed Leaving Site
« Reply #16 on: »
I don't know where you got your advice from before coming to this forum but this has been FUBAR'd by your defence.

Think about it... The PoC in the N1SDT Claim Form state no cause of action. This is a complete failure to abide by CPR 16.4(1)(a). Irrespective of anything received prior to the claim being made, the claimant is required to state a cause of action in their claim. Without a cause of action, you have no idea why they claim you owe them a debt.

You stated in your defence that they had not complied with the rules yet then go on to defend in detail what they failed to tell you in the PoC. If the PoC are defective and they were required to state a cause of action, then they could have submitted further detailed PoC within 14 days of the claim being issued. They didn't. You defended with a load of detail that you should not have mentioned.

Now you are going to go to trial. You can still try and argue as a preliminary matter that the PoC failed to comply with CPR 16.4(1)(a) and the claim should be struck out on that basis alone and you can use the persuasive, but not binding, Chan and Akande cases as reference, but as it has reached the hearing stage, it is a bit too late and you have to hope that your judge agrees that "rules are rules" and the claimant has not abided by them and the claim can be struck out.

However, you are playing a game of "judge bingo" and it will all come down as to how well you plead your case on the day and how much the court agrees that Moorside Legal are a bunch of incompetents and how they have managed to get a case this far in the first place.

As this is now FUBAR, I'm afraid that I am unable to assist any further but wish you luck at your hearing. There may be others who are willing to try and assist you further.
Never argue with stupid people. They will drag you down to their level and then beat you with experience” - Mark Twain

Re: Driver or Passenger? Observed Leaving Site
« Reply #17 on: »
Ok, thanks for your assistance to date.

It’s not clear if your statement “you defended with a load of detail that you should not have mentioned” refers to the defence para 1-14 (which you seem to be supportive of as a preliminary matter to have raised at that stage) or para 15:2 (which seems to be irrelevant) or para 17-41? Perhaps someone else could assist me on this point?

Also, I would appreciate it if someone could answer the following:

1.   If the PoC failed to abide by CPR 16.4(1)(a) then I’m not understanding how the additional information presented in the defence has changed that. Why might it not have gone to a hearing without that additional defence info, yet it is now going to a hearing because of it? Perhaps there is a stage in the process where an application can be made direct to the court in advance of defence being filed/served?

2.   Presumably all the other arguments in the defence / WS about who was driving / Pofa / landowner authority (para 37)  / inflated claimed amount / etc are still solid?

3.   I understand that it’s the claimant’s responsibility to distribute document bundles, does this happen on the day? Presumably we would be well advised to bring our own copies along with a  copy of rules regarding Lay Representatives?

4.      How, exactly, do I request the judge to strike it out as a preliminary matter? is it just a case of bring it up right at the start of the hearing?

Thanks


Re: Driver or Passenger? Observed Leaving Site
« Reply #18 on: »
My only other observation would be that you clarified on here that your WS may be referring to another parking event, but neither of the witness statements appear to make this clear (I've only quickly read them, so apologies if they do and I've missed it). If they do not, then I'd repeat b789's point earlier on that you should prepare to explain this to the judge. Otherwise, if your witness statements paint what seems to be an incorrect version of what actually happened, without explanation, this may harm your credibility.

Re: Driver or Passenger? Observed Leaving Site
« Reply #19 on: »
Quote
1.   If the PoC failed to abide by CPR 16.4(1)(a) then I’m not understanding how the additional information presented in the defence has changed that. 
One problem is that the basis of the argument around the vague PoC is that the defendant was unable to properly respond to the claim because the PoC were vague. This point is rather undermined if the defendant subsequently provides a thorough and well-articulated defence that covers all of the specifics of the case. The judge may take the view that the defendant clearly wasn't disadvantaged by the PoC and that it therefore wouldn't be proportionate to strike out the entire claim on that basis. This is where "judge bingo" and how much of a stickler for strict adherence to the rules they are.

Re: Driver or Passenger? Observed Leaving Site
« Reply #20 on: »

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1EOnQp2dN8j8jtBGGDnO7BNpJz9eZnzJT/view?usp=sharing


DWMB2 – thanks.

Son had tried 2 avenues (pages 2 /3 shown in the above pdf) to elicit further details from claimant about the event in question, but claimant didn’t respond to either.

Defence commences on page 4 of the pdf. On page 9 #15, para 2 reference is made to the restaurant because it’s a commonly held belief that tickets are simply sent out to the keeper of any car which parks adjacent to Nandos in order to collect a takeaway (even if there is no evidence that the driver gets out to collect the takeaway). Son believed that since his car is shown parked next to Nandos he was the victim of this. When the defence was written he only had the picture on the NTK to go on which shows his car parked next to Nandos and it was 15 months after the date of the event.

Later, when witness statements were called for (Son’s WS starts on pdf page 14) he states on point #8 that he was not the driver.

My own WS is on page 27, and it states that I was the driver.

When claimant’s WS arrived there were additional pictures (pdf pages:44-46) which showed son leaving the car park in a different direction to the restaurant (so not going to Nandos). I assumed that those additional pictures rendered the comments about the restaurant irrelevant and that my input would remain as both witness and lay representative.

Unless claimant produces even more pictures derived from the multitude of cameras in the car park to suggest otherwise, we assume that the claimant believes that son was the driver solely on the basis that he was standing next to the open driver’s door.

What happens if claimant files a supplemental WS with more pictures or presents more at the hearing?

Re: Driver or Passenger? Observed Leaving Site
« Reply #21 on: »
Just explain all this to the judge. I doubt that they will file an SWS and you can object to it anyway.

You argue that the claim should be struck out as no cause of action (CPR 16.4(1)(a).
You argue that the Claimants WS is third hand hearsay, written in the third person and should not carry any weight.
You argue that the defendant was not the driver and show that the claimant has not provided any evidence to prove that the defendant was the driver, especially as you have provided a WS to state that you were the driver.

You have this in the defence:

Quote
Lack of standing or landowner authority, and lack of ADR

37. DVLA data is only supplied if there is an agreement flowing from the landholder (ref: KADOE rules). It is not accepted that this Claimant (an agent of a principal) has authority to form contracts at this site in their name. The Claimant is put to strict proof of their standing to litigate.

Whilst I would have put more directly that the claimant was put to strict proof of a valid contract flowing from the landowner, blah, blah, I don't see anything in their bundle that evidences their standing to litigate. A statement from a paralegal simply stating that "the claimant was instructed by the private landowner to manage parking on the land" is in no way 'proof' of their standing.

Why has the claimant not provided a copy of their contract with the landowner?

You just need to go in with the knowledge of their failings. They are using Moorside Legal who are a firm of incompetent wannabes. If they even send a pay-by-the-hour advocate to represent them on the day, that person will have no idea about the case as they will probably only have received their copy of the bundle the evening before, if not on the day.

Know the case well. Go in with confidence and raise the points here and ask the judge to consider them.

I doubt you'll get ay costs, especially as they appear to be a bit exaggerated. However, if you are successful, you can ask for the defendants loss of earnings because of attendance , up to £95 plus any travel expenses and parking etc. As the Lay Rep, you cannot claim anything.
« Last Edit: June 09, 2025, 08:27:26 pm by b789 »
Never argue with stupid people. They will drag you down to their level and then beat you with experience” - Mark Twain