Author Topic: Court Claim - Euro Car Parks Euro Notice from March 2020 (Greengate Manchester)  (Read 4681 times)

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Just want to preface this and give huge props to @b789 and @DWMB2 for the work you do here. Do you guys have a donations page so other users like myself can support the great work you do?

A letter was received to my address which was a county court claim form made against my father from Euro Car Parks. As you can see in the letter, this alleged PCN is from March 2020. My father is no longer registered keeper of the Vehicle (sold in October 2020) and at the time, there were 2 additional name drivers on the car (is there a case to suggest ECP can't confirm who was driving at the time of the alleged infringement?). I genuinely do not recall receiving a PNC.

Link to Court claim letter and PNC here (wouldn't let me attach directly here)


I have googled the alleged infringement location and there appears to be only one ECP within the Greengate manachester area. I have also found on Google the signage from approx 2 years ago if that's of any use.

I have read the very helpful guidance of @b789 and 'Coupon-mad' from MSE for similar posts and aim to follow that. I hope this wasn't the wrong thing to do but so far I have posted my AoS via mail (I believe doing this online is advisable but is it too late for that?), and aim to prepare my defence.

I also contacted DCB, and requested the original PNC which was provided.



I have never had something like this, asking for a so called debt after 4 years is quite absurd but unsure how I go about doing a defence. Would appreciate any support/and or guidance offered.

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Welcome. ECP are on a binge at the moment. Probably doing some spring cleaning and digging loads of old PCNs that they forgot about. They can chase these forever but they can only issue a court claim before 6 years. So, four years is no biggie. It can be raised in any defence but this will never get into a court room for a hearing.

The issue of who was driving is irrelevant, as long as the identity of that person is not revealed. Not only named drivers on the insurance policy can drive the car but anyone who holds at least third party liability insurance can drive any car with the owners permission.

What is important is that ECP have no idea who was driving. They have issued the PCN to the Keeper and have asked the Keeper to pass the notice on to the driver. However, they are attempting to rely on PoFA to be able to transfer liability for the charge from the unknown driver to the Keeper. However, they can only do that if they fully comply with all the requirements of PoFA and they haven't. There is no "invitation", not any synonym of the word, for the Keeper to pay the charge in the Notice to Keeper (NtK).

On what date did you post your Acknowledgement of Service (AoS)? It is very important that the AoS is received by the CNBC no later than Monday 16th September. As long as the AoS is received by that date, you then have until 4pm on Monday 30th September to submit your defence.

You didn't have to post the AoS if you couldn't log into MCOL. You could simply have downloaded the N9 form online, completed it and then emailed it as a pdf attachment to an email and sent to to aos.cnbc@justice.gov.uk. Did you get a free "proof of posting" certificate from the post office when you sent the AoS? In fact, because it is such a shambles at the CNBC, you should email a copy now. At least you will know it has been received because you CC in yourself and you also get an auto-response email back from the CNBC.

What is going to happen next is you submit your defence. I know the template defence over on MSE is very long and I also know that many judges do not like it as they consider it a long boilerplate that tries to cover everything, including a lot of detail that isn't necessary.

It really doesn't matter as ECP have used DCB Legal to file the claim. To be honest, you could simply send in a nursery rhyme as your defence and the outcome is likely to be the same... an eventual discontinuation.

So, no matter which defence you use, the long one from MSE or the short one that has been put together by a district judge, the outcome will be the same. As long as the advice is followed, this will eventually discontinued.

Here is the suggested defence with a draft order that I suggest you use. When I say "you", I am referring to the named defendant on the claim form. It doesn't matter if you are doing this for your dad as long as it all in his name. Any documents that require a signature can be signed electronically by simply typing the defendants full name on the forum. There should be no need to print anything off. Everything is sent as a PDF attachment to an email and the claim number should be in the subject of the email. Always CC in yourself as evidence of having sent it.

When adding any defence, you have to assume that you have never had any correspondence about this allegation and the claim form is the first you know about this. With that in mind, think how you would respond to the allegation. The Particulars of Claim are woefully inadequate and fail to fully comply with CPR 16.4.

This short defence has been adapted slightly because there is a mention in the PoC that the reason for the PCN was because "The PandD/permit Purchased Did Not Cover The Date And Time of Parking."

Quote
IN THE COUNTY COURT
Claim No: [Claim Number]
BETWEEN:

Euro Car Parks Limited
Claimant

- and -

[Defendant's Full Name]
Defendant



DEFENCE

1. The Defendant denies any liability for this claim.

2. There is a lack of precise detail in the Particulars of Claim (PoC) in respect of the factual and legal allegations made against the Defendant such that the PoC do not comply with CPR 16.4.

3. The Defendant is unable to plead properly to the PoC because:

(a) The contract referred to is not detailed or attached to the PoC in accordance with CPR PD 16.7.5;

(b) The PoC do not state the exact wording of the clause (or clauses) of the terms and conditions of the contract which is relied on;

(c) The PoC do not clearly set out the reason why or how the claimant asserts that the defendant has breached the contract;

(d) The PoC do not state with sufficient particularity (i) exactly where the breach occurred, (ii) the exact time when the breach occurred and (iii) how long it is alleged that the vehicle was parked before the parking charge was allegedly incurred;

(e) The PoC do not state exactly how the claim for statutory interest is calculated;

(f) The PoC do not state what proportion of the claim is the parking charge and what proportion is damages;

(g) The PoC states that the Claimant is suing the defendant as the driver or the keeper. The claimant obviously knows whether the defendant is being sued as the driver or the keeper and should not be permitted to plead alternative causes of action;

(h) In the Notice to Keeper (NtK) received after the claim was issued, the Claimant has failed to fully comply with all the requirements of the Protection of Freedoms Act 2012 (PoFA). Specifically, the Claimant failed to include the required "invitation", or any synonym of the word, for the Keeper to pay the charge as mandated by PoFA paragraph 9(2)(e)(i) and therefore, there can be no Keeper liability.

4. The Defendant has attached to this defence a copy of an order made at another court which the allocating judge ought to make at this stage so that the Defendant can then know and understand the case which they face and can then respond properly to the claim.

Statement of truth

I believe that the facts stated in this Defence are true. I understand that proceedings for contempt of court may be brought against anyone who makes, or causes to be made, a false statement in a document verified by a statement of truth without an honest belief in its truth.


Signed:


Date:

Here is link to the draft order which should also be attached to the email with the defence:

Short Defence Draft Order

All the defendant has to do is edit their name and the claim number in the defence and type their name for the signature and date it. There is nothing to edit in the Draft Order.

Both documents should be saved in PDF format and attached to the an email addressed to claimresponses.cnbc@justice.gov.uk. Make sure the claim number is in the subject of the email. In the body, simply state that attached is the defence and a draft order for claim number [Claimant name v Defendants name]. Also CC in yourself.

When it is emailed, you must receive an auto-response email back from the CNBC. It should be almost immediate but could take a few minutes. If you do not receive the auto-response, try again and if no luck, try sending from a different email agent.

Please keep us informed if you choose to use the above defence.
« Last Edit: September 13, 2024, 09:30:36 am by b789 »
Never argue with stupid people. They will drag you down to their level and then beat you with experience” - Mark Twain
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Quote
Welcome. ECP are on a binge at the moment. Probably doing some spring cleaning and digging loads of old PCNs that they forgot about.
They seem to go through phases of doing this.

We cannot offer guarantees, as prior conduct is not always a reliable indicator of future conduct, but if they carry on as they have for the last couple of years, as long as you defend this, DCB Legal will probably discontinue.

Quote
Do you guys have a donations page
No, advice is offered for free, and the costs of setting up/running the site are generously covered by Southpaw82, the owner. I do sometimes suggest to people that if they wish to and can afford to, that if they win their case they could donate some of the money they saved to a charity of their choice.
Away from 29th March - 5th April
Posting for the first time? READ THIS FIRST - Private Parking Charges Forum guide | House Rules

Useful Links (for private parking charges):
Protection of Freedoms Act 2012 (PoFA) Schedule 4 | Private Parking Sector Single Code of Practice
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Welcome. ECP are on a binge at the moment. Probably doing some spring cleaning and digging loads of old PCNs that they forgot about. They can chase these forever but they can only issue a court claim before 6 years. So, four years is no biggie. It can be raised in any defence but this will never get into a court room for a hearing.

The issue of who was driving is irrelevant, as long as the identity of that person is not revealed. Not only named drivers on the insurance policy can drive the car but anyone who holds at least third party liability insurance can drive any car with the owners permission.

What is important is that ECP have no idea who was driving. They have issued the PCN to the Keeper and have asked the Keeper to pass the notice on to the driver. However, they are attempting to rely on PoFA to be able to transfer liability for the charge from the unknown driver to the Keeper. However, they can only do that if they fully comply with all the requirements of PoFA and they haven't. There is no "invitation", not any synonym of the word, for the Keeper to pay the charge in the Notice to Keeper (NtK).

On what date did you post your Acknowledgement of Service (AoS)? It is very important that the AoS is received by the CNBC no later than Monday 16th September. As long as the AoS is received by that date, you then have until 4pm on Monday 30th September to submit your defence.

You didn't have to post the AoS if you couldn't log into MCOL. You could simply have downloaded the N9 form online, completed it and then emailed it as a pdf attachment to an email and sent to to aos.cnbc@justice.gov.uk. Did you get a free "proof of posting" certificate from the post office when you sent the AoS? In fact, because it is such a shambles at the CNBC, you should email a copy now. At least you will know it has been received because you CC in yourself and you also get an auto-response email back from the CNBC.

What is going to happen next is you submit your defence. I know the template defence over on MSE is very long and I also know that many judges do not like it as they consider it a long boilerplate that tries to cover everything, including a lot of detail that isn't necessary.

It really doesn't matter as ECP have used DCB Legal to file the claim. To be honest, you could simply send in a nursery rhyme as your defence and the outcome is likely to be the same... an eventual discontinuation.

So, no matter which defence you use, the long one from MSE or the short one that has been put together by a district judge, the outcome will be the same. As long as the advice is followed, this will eventually discontinued.

Here is the suggested defence with a draft order that I suggest you use. When I say "you", I am referring to the named defendant on the claim form. It doesn't matter if you are doing this for your dad as long as it all in his name. Any documents that require a signature can be signed electronically by simply typing the defendants full name on the forum. There should be no need to print anything off. Everything is sent as a PDF attachment to an email and the claim number should be in the subject of the email. Always CC in yourself as evidence of having sent it.

When adding any defence, you have to assume that you have never had any correspondence about this allegation and the claim form is the first you know about this. With that in mind, think how you would respond to the allegation. The Particulars of Claim are woefully inadequate and fail to fully comply with CPR 16.4.

This short defence has been adapted slightly because there is a mention in the PoC that the reason for the PCN was because "The PandD/permit Purchased Did Not Cover The Date And Time of Parking."

Quote
IN THE COUNTY COURT
Claim No: [Claim Number]
BETWEEN:

Euro Car Parks Limited
Claimant

- and -

[Defendant's Full Name]
Defendant



DEFENCE

1. The Defendant denies any liability for this claim.

2. There is a lack of precise detail in the Particulars of Claim (PoC) in respect of the factual and legal allegations made against the Defendant such that the PoC do not comply with CPR 16.4.

3. The Defendant is unable to plead properly to the PoC because:

(a) The contract referred to is not detailed or attached to the PoC in accordance with CPR PD 16.7.5;

(b) The PoC do not state the exact wording of the clause (or clauses) of the terms and conditions of the contract which is relied on;

(c) The PoC do not clearly set out the reason why or how the claimant asserts that the defendant has breached the contract;

(d) The PoC do not state with sufficient particularity (i) exactly where the breach occurred, (ii) the exact time when the breach occurred and (iii) how long it is alleged that the vehicle was parked before the parking charge was allegedly incurred;

(e) The PoC do not state exactly how the claim for statutory interest is calculated;

(f) The PoC do not state what proportion of the claim is the parking charge and what proportion is damages;

(g) The PoC states that the Claimant is suing the defendant as the driver or the keeper. The claimant obviously knows whether the defendant is being sued as the driver or the keeper and should not be permitted to plead alternative causes of action;

(h) In the Notice to Keeper (NtK) received after the claim was issued, the Claimant has failed to fully comply with all the requirements of the Protection of Freedoms Act 2012 (PoFA). Specifically, the Claimant failed to include the required "invitation", or any synonym of the word, for the Keeper to pay the charge as mandated by PoFA paragraph 9(2)(e)(i) and therefore, there can be no Keeper liability.

4. The Defendant has attached to this defence a copy of an order made at another court which the allocating judge ought to make at this stage so that the Defendant can then know and understand the case which they face and can then respond properly to the claim.

Statement of truth

I believe that the facts stated in this Defence are true. I understand that proceedings for contempt of court may be brought against anyone who makes, or causes to be made, a false statement in a document verified by a statement of truth without an honest belief in its truth.


Signed:


Date:

Here is link to the draft order which should also be attached to the email with the defence:

Short Defence Draft Order

All the defendant has to do is edit their name and the claim number in the defence and type their name for the signature and date it. There is nothing to edit in the Draft Order.

Both documents should be saved in PDF format and attached to the an email addressed to claimresponses.cnbc@justice.gov.uk. Make sure the claim number is in the subject of the email. In the body, simply state that attached is the defence and a draft order for claim number [Claimant name v Defendants name]. Also CC in yourself.

When it is emailed, you must receive an auto-response email back from the CNBC. It should be almost immediate but could take a few minutes. If you do not receive the auto-response, try again and if no luck, try sending from a different email agent.

Please keep us informed if you choose to use the above defence.
@b789 delivers again! Thank you very much for taking the time to respond and draft that. Very much appreciated and again huge props for the work you do for others.

As I have already given my acknowledgement, can I submit my defence right away or is it advisable to wait?

@DWMB2 thank you for the response too!

You can submit the defence any time as long as it is before the deadline. There is no advantage to be gained. I predict that this will eventually be discontinued.
Never argue with stupid people. They will drag you down to their level and then beat you with experience” - Mark Twain
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You can submit the defence any time as long as it is before the deadline. There is no advantage to be gained. I predict that this will eventually be discontinued.

Thank you - I will be in touch with the verdict!

As a side note, can the email with the defence come from any email address as long as the correct references are used?

It matters not which email address you use to send the defence from. However, it must be an email address that you have access to and can receive and verify any auto responses and anything else sent to that address.

I don't understand why you are asking that question.

Sending your defence is not the only thing that you will have to do. Once your defence is submitted, the CNBC will send a copy to the Claimant who will respond and inform you that they have received your defence and they intend to continue (usually with a "without prejudice" offer to settle, which you ignore). After that, you will receive an N180 DQ that you will need to complete and email back to the court AND the claimants solicitor. At some point after that, if it hasn't been thrown out yet, you will receive a notification that it has been transferred to your local court and then a date with a hearing and a deadline to submit your "bundle" (Witness Statement).

If it has not already been thrown out, DCB Legal will discontinue just before they have to pay the trial fee. They will, at various stages try and make contact and try to settle for less. Ignore them and if you are silly enough to actually communicate with them about this, I guarantee that they will keep haggling down to £25 and as long as you stick to your guns, they will give up and discontinue.
Never argue with stupid people. They will drag you down to their level and then beat you with experience” - Mark Twain

It matters not which email address you use to send the defence from. However, it must be an email address that you have access to and can receive and verify any auto responses and anything else sent to that address.

I don't understand why you are asking that question.

Sending your defence is not the only thing that you will have to do. Once your defence is submitted, the CNBC will send a copy to the Claimant who will respond and inform you that they have received your defence and they intend to continue (usually with a "without prejudice" offer to settle, which you ignore). After that, you will receive an N180 DQ that you will need to complete and email back to the court AND the claimants solicitor. At some point after that, if it hasn't been thrown out yet, you will receive a notification that it has been transferred to your local court and then a date with a hearing and a deadline to submit your "bundle" (Witness Statement).

If it has not already been thrown out, DCB Legal will discontinue just before they have to pay the trial fee. They will, at various stages try and make contact and try to settle for less. Ignore them and if you are silly enough to actually communicate with them about this, I guarantee that they will keep haggling down to £25 and as long as you stick to your guns, they will give up and discontinue.

Regarding the email, my brother who is at the home address has filled the paperwork and used this email address on the AoS.

Shall I ask my brother to submit the defence and draft order as part of our defence online too (www.moneyclaim.gov.uk)? He has already emailed both documents to the email you mentioned.

You can just send the defence from your email address. As long as the autoresponse is received, that’s all that matters.

If your brother completed the AoS and did it all in your name, is what is important. Did he use his Government Gateway ID or yours to access MCOL?
Never argue with stupid people. They will drag you down to their level and then beat you with experience” - Mark Twain

You can just send the defence from your email address. As long as the autoresponse is received, that’s all that matters.

If your brother completed the AoS and did it all in your name, is what is important. Did he use his Government Gateway ID or yours to access MCOL?

Thanks; I'll make sure all comms are from his account. I logged onto the MCOL but I did not perform any actions.

You are done with MCOL and it should only be used for checking your history until it is referred to a court local to you. The only action needed to make with MCOL was the AoS.

You defence will be sent from your own email address ideally.
Never argue with stupid people. They will drag you down to their level and then beat you with experience” - Mark Twain
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You are done with MCOL and it should only be used for checking your history until it is referred to a court local to you. The only action needed to make with MCOL was the AoS.

You defence will be sent from your own email address ideally.

Hello @b789 and @DWMB2,

Defence was submitted and I have received the following email from DCB. is this normal?




Bare in mind they have sent this email to my personal address (when I asked them to provide the original PNC). The email on the AoS is different.
« Last Edit: September 24, 2024, 04:26:19 pm by ChromeX1 »

Yes, all part of their standard procedure. Just keep going - I wouldn't bother calling them to discuss settling, you're not interested in paying anything.
Away from 29th March - 5th April
Posting for the first time? READ THIS FIRST - Private Parking Charges Forum guide | House Rules

Useful Links (for private parking charges):
Protection of Freedoms Act 2012 (PoFA) Schedule 4 | Private Parking Sector Single Code of Practice
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Yes, all part of their standard procedure. Just keep going - I wouldn't bother calling them to discuss settling, you're not interested in paying anything.

Great thank you for confirming so quickly! Much appreciated.

Hello @b789 and @DWMB2,

I have just recieved the following. Is this normal? Do I attend the Mediation Appointment? any tips on what I should do please?


https://imgur.com/a/sGwA8k5