Author Topic: Civil Enforcement - No permit - Sacred Heart Church Wimbledon  (Read 4986 times)

0 Members and 20 Guests are viewing this topic.

Re: Civil Enforcement - No permit - Sacred Heart Church Wimbledon
« Reply #30 on: »
Obviously the landowner is the Roman Catholic Archdiocese of Southwark. Who did you contact to try and get the PCN a cancelled?

The “Confirmation of Appointment” is not a copy of the contract. It is a document that you or I could reproduce on a whim. Did you include something like this in your POPLA appeal:

Quote
The operator is also put to strict proof, by means of contemporaneous and unredacted evidence, of a chain of authority flowing from the landholder of the "relevant land" to the operator. It is not accepted that the operator has adhered to the landholder's definitions, exemptions, grace period, hours of operation, etc. and any instructions to cancel charges due to complaints. There is no evidence that the freeholder authorises this operator to issue parking charges or what the land enforcement boundary and start/expiry dates are, nor whether this operator has standing to enforce such charges in their own name rather than a bare licence to act as an agent ‘on behalf of’ the landowner.
The operator is put to strict proof of full compliance with the BPA Code of Practice as this operator does not have proprietary interest in the “relevant land” then I require that they produce an unredacted copy of the contract with the landowner.
The contract and any 'site agreement' or 'User Manual' setting out details including exemptions - such as any 'genuine customer' or 'genuine resident' exemptions or any site occupier's 'right of veto' charge cancellation rights - is key evidence to define what this operator is authorised to do and any circumstances where the landowner/firms on site in fact have a right to cancellation of a charge. It cannot be assumed, just because an agent is contracted to merely put some signs up and issue Parking Charge Notices, that the agent is also authorised to make contracts with all or any category of visiting drivers and/or to enforce the charge in court in their own name (legal action regarding land use disputes generally being a matter for a landowner only). Witness statements are not sound evidence of the above, often being pre-signed, generic documents not even identifying the case in hand or even the site rules.
A witness statement might in some cases be accepted by POPLA but in this case I
suggest it is unlikely to sufficiently evidence the definition of the services provided by each party to the agreement. Nor would it define vital information such as charging days/times, any exemption clauses, grace periods (which I believe may be longer than the bare minimum times set out in the BPA CoP) and basic information such as the land boundary and bays where enforcement applies/does not apply.
Not forgetting evidence of the various restrictions which the landowner has authorised can give rise to a charge and, of course, how much the landowner
authorises this agent to charge (which cannot be assumed to be the sum on a sign
because template private parking terms and sums have been known not to match
the actual landowner agreement). Paragraph 7 of the BPA Code of Practice defines
the mandatory requirements and I put this operator to strict proof of full
compliance:
7.2 If the operator wishes to take legal action on any outstanding parking
charges, they must ensure that they have the written authority of the
landowner (or their appointed agent) prior to legal action being taken.
7.3 The written authorisation must also set out:
(a) the definition of the land on which you may operate, so that the
boundaries of the land can be clearly defined
(b) any conditions or restrictions on parking control and enforcement
operations, including any restrictions on hours of operation
(c) any conditions or restrictions on the types of vehicles that may, or may
not, be subject to parking control and enforcement
(d) who has the responsibility for putting up and maintaining signs
(e) the definition of the services provided by each party to the agreement

Point this out in your response to the operator.

What about the photos that have obviously been altered that have different “added” timestamps? Was that raised in the original appeal? Highlight it in your operator response.
« Last Edit: July 31, 2024, 08:33:54 pm by b789 »
Never argue with stupid people. They will drag you down to their level and then beat you with experience” - Mark Twain

Re: Civil Enforcement - No permit - Sacred Heart Church Wimbledon
« Reply #31 on: »
My POPLA appeal was virtually word for word the version in one of your posts, see my final pdf here

I got in touch with the Residents association who put me in touch with the Church who put me in touch with the Parish Priest of the particular church who told me that I should appeal to Creative. I will also have a look to see if there's anyone I can speak to at the Roman Catholic Archdiocese of Southwark - I did not realise this was the landowner till I saw the contract.

The document at the end of the pdf in previous post has the details of the Parish Priest redacted BY ME - it didn't feel fair to share his name / details online but then again, these are probably public anyway.

No comment on evidence tampering.

When you say 'operator response' it is just a 10,000 character space to provide comments on what has been uploaded by Civil Enforcement - presumably there's no additional opportunity for me to add further arguments?

Re: Civil Enforcement - No permit - Sacred Heart Church Wimbledon
« Reply #32 on: »
presumably there's no additional opportunity for me to add further arguments?
You cannot use this space to raise additional points of appeal, those should have been made in your POPLA appeal. This space is used to draw attention to any parts of their evidence pack that support your case, any points they have failed to address, etc.

Re: Civil Enforcement - No permit - Sacred Heart Church Wimbledon
« Reply #33 on: »
So they haven’t produced an unredacted copy of the contract. The “Confirmation of Appointment” document is not a copy of a contract and appears to be something thrown together and is unsigned. It does not show any contract flowing from the landowner through their agent to the operator.

Highlight this in your response and point out that anyone could have put that together.

Whatever POPLA decides makes no difference. You won’t be paying these scammers.
Never argue with stupid people. They will drag you down to their level and then beat you with experience” - Mark Twain

Re: Civil Enforcement - No permit - Sacred Heart Church Wimbledon
« Reply #34 on: »
How's this for a response?

I am writing to provide comments on the response submitted by Civil Enforcement Ltd (CEL) regarding my appeal against the parking charge issued on 4th June 2024. I maintain that the Parking Charge Notice (PCN) should be cancelled for the reasons outlined below:

Confirmation of Appointment is Not a Contract:
The "Confirmation of Appointment" provided by CEL does not constitute a valid contract. It fails to demonstrate CEL's authority to issue and enforce parking charges at Sacred Heart Church Wimbledon. CEL must provide a full, contemporaneous, and unredacted copy of their contract with the landowner, including specifics such as the definition of the land, restrictions on parking control and enforcement operations, and the duration of their authority. The provided document lacks these details and does not comply with BPA Code of Practice, Section 7.

Evidence Tampering and Inaccurate Photographic Evidence:
CEL's photographic evidence shows different timestamps, indicating potential tampering. The BPA Code of Practice (Section 21.5a) states that photographic evidence must not be altered except for GDPR compliance or to enhance the image of the VRM for clarity. The presence of two different timestamps suggests that the images were altered after they were taken, breaching the BPA Code of Practice and undermining the credibility of CEL's evidence.

Inadequate Signage:

Visibility and Legibility: The signage at Sacred Heart Church Wimbledon is not sufficiently prominent or clear. My photographs show that the signs are hard to read, especially in low light conditions, and are not visible from a distance.
Clear and Prominent Charges: CEL's signage fails to meet the standard set by ParkingEye Ltd v Beavis [2015] UKSC 67. The £100 charge is buried within a lot of text, reducing its visibility and the likelihood that a driver would notice and understand the charge upon entering the car park.
Conclusion:
Given the inadequate signage, the lack of a valid contractual agreement between CEL and the landowner, and the evidence tampering, I respectfully request that POPLA upholds my appeal and cancels the parking charge issued by Civil Enforcement Ltd.

Thank you for considering my comments.

Re: Civil Enforcement - No permit - Sacred Heart Church Wimbledon
« Reply #35 on: »
Bumping as I think I need to submit this by tomorrow or latest Thursday.

Is there anything that anyone thinks I should add or shall I submit as above?

Re: Civil Enforcement - No permit - Sacred Heart Church Wimbledon
« Reply #36 on: »
As long as you point out in your response, any of your original points that have not been rebutted or answered, it will be good to go. Did you highlight the doctored photos? Simply mentioning them is not enough.
Never argue with stupid people. They will drag you down to their level and then beat you with experience” - Mark Twain

Re: Civil Enforcement - No permit - Sacred Heart Church Wimbledon
« Reply #37 on: »
It's just a comment box - can't upload or attach anything so mentioning is the best I can do...

On the landowner front I spoke to the Archdiocese who confirmed that the Parish Priest should be able to do this so I have no idea why he was reluctant. A further email may be in order...

Re: Civil Enforcement - No permit - Sacred Heart Church Wimbledon
« Reply #38 on: »
It's just a comment box - can't upload or attach anything so mentioning is the best I can do...

I meant did you highlight the doctored photos in your original appeal? If you didn't, you must try and describe what is obviously an alteration of the evidential photo which is in breach of the CoP.

It may need painting out to the local priest that the landowner is jointly and severally liable for the actions of their agents. Maybe there's a religious metaphor that can be used.  :o
Never argue with stupid people. They will drag you down to their level and then beat you with experience” - Mark Twain

Re: Civil Enforcement - No permit - Sacred Heart Church Wimbledon
« Reply #39 on: »
Maybe there's a religious metaphor that can be used.  :o
"He who is without sin can cast the first Parking Charge Notice"

Re: Civil Enforcement - No permit - Sacred Heart Church Wimbledon
« Reply #40 on: »
It's just a comment box - can't upload or attach anything so mentioning is the best I can do...

I meant did you highlight the doctored photos in your original appeal? If you didn't, you must try and describe what is obviously an alteration of the evidential photo which is in breach of the CoP.

It may need painting out to the local priest that the landowner is jointly and severally liable for the actions of their agents. Maybe there's a religious metaphor that can be used.  :o

Yes I did highlight the doctored photos:

Quote
Evidence Tampering by the operator
The operator has submitted as supposed evidence a photograph of the sign that is alleged to have formed the contract. The BPA CoP specifically Staes at 21.5a as follows:
Use of photographic evidence: Photographic evidence must not be used by you as the basis for issuing a parking charge unless: b) the images bear an accurate time and date stamp applied at the point the picture was taken;

It is obvious from the photograph above, provided by the operator, that it has been tampered with and altered. There are two different timestamps, one of which has, without a doubt, been added after the point the picture was taken. Additionally, in section 21.5a it states:
Alteration of photographic evidence: You must not digitally or by other means alter images used as photographic evidence other than: e) to blur faces or the VRMs of other vehicles in the image in accordance with your GDPR obligations; or f) to enhance the image of the VRM for clarity, but not to alter the letters and numbers displayed.
It is obvious that this breach of the BPA CoP must invalidate the PCN as it has been issued incorrectly.

Maybe there's a religious metaphor that can be used.  :o
"He who is without sin can cast the first Parking Charge Notice"

Something about flocks and who thou leaves in charge of thy sacred land... I don't think the argument that CEL are agents of the Lord will fly though!

Re: Civil Enforcement - No permit - Sacred Heart Church Wimbledon
« Reply #41 on: »
POPLA Appeal has come back - unsuccessful (explanation below for those interested) - what should be my next steps?

Many thanks!


Quote
Assessor summary of operator case
The operator has issued the PCN because the vehicle was parked on the site and failed to obtain a permit during the notified period.


Assessor summary of your case
The appellant has raised the following grounds of appeal: • The signage on the site does not comply with Section 19.3 and 19.4 of the British Parking Association (BPA) Code of Practice. • The evidence provided by the operator has been tampered with. • The operator has not provided adequate evidence of their authority to issue parking charges at this location. In the comments the appellant has advised the following: • The confirmation of appointment is not a contract. • The images provided by the operator show different timestamps which indicates potential tampering. • The signage does not comply with Section 19.4 of the BPA Code of Practice. The appellant has provided a document detailing their appeal.


Assessor supporting rational for decision
When assessing an appeal POPLA considers if the operator has issued the parking charge notice correctly and if the driver has complied with the terms and conditions for the use of the car park. The operator has provided evidence of the vehicle parked on the site for one hour and 11 minutes on the day in question. The data from the permit system shows that the vehicle had not been registered for a permit on the day of the incident. In this case, it is not clear who the driver of the appellant’s vehicle is, so I must consider the Protection of Freedoms Act (PoFA) 2012, as the operator issued the Parking Charge Notice (PCN) to the keeper of the vehicle. The operator has provided me with a copy of the notice to keeper sent to the appellant. I have reviewed the notice to keeper against the relevant sections of PoFA 2012 and I am satisfied that it is compliant. I will therefore be assessing keeper liability. The appellant has advised that the signage on the site is not compliant. The British Parking Association (BPA) has a Code of Practice which set the standards its parking operators need to comply with. Section 19.3 of the code states that signs must be placed throughout the car park so that drivers have the chance to review the terms and conditions. The code confirms that these signs must be conspicuous and legible and written in intelligible language so that they are easy to see read and understand. The operator has provided multiple images of the signs within the car park and after reviewing these, I am satisfied that there are plenty of signs located within the car park and that these signs meet the requirements of section 19.3 of the Code of Practice.The signage clearly advises that a permit is required to park and failing to obtain one is a breach of the terms. Further to the appellant’s statement that the operator’s evidence has been tampered with I am satisfied that the evidence the operator has provided is correct and has not been tampered with. The fact that there are different timestamps on some of the images does not invalidate the PCN in any way. Section 19.4 of the Code of Practice states that if parking operators intend to use the keeper liability provisions in Schedule 4 of the Protection of Freedoms Act (PoFA) 2012, the signs must give adequate notice of the charge. I have reviewed the signs and I am satisfied that the charge amount is clear as it has been highlighted to draw motorist’s attention to the amount. The appellant has questioned landowner authority .I note the appellant’s comments and I refer to Section 7 of the British Parking Association(BPA) Code of Practice which states in 7 .1 “If you do not own the land on which you are carrying out parking management, you must have the written authorisation of the landowner (or their appointed agent). The written confirmation must be given before you can start operating on the land in question and give you the authority to carry out all the aspects of car park management for the site that you are responsible for. In particular, it must say that the landowner (or their appointed agent) requires you to keep to the Code of Practice and that you have the authority to pursue outstanding parking charges. 7.2 If the operator wishes to take legal action on any outstanding parking charges, they must ensure that they have the written authority of the landowner (or their appointed agent) prior to legal action being taken. 7.3 The written authorisation must also set out: a the definition of the land on which you may operate, so that the boundaries of the land can be clearly defined b any conditions or restrictions on parking control and enforcement operations, including any restrictions on hours of operation c any conditions or restrictions on the types of vehicles that may, or may not, be subject to parking control and enforcement d who has the responsibility for putting up and maintaining signs e the definition of the services provided by each party to the agreement”. The operator has provided a confirmation of appointment document and I am satisfied that the operator has the authority to issue PCN’s on this site. The operator does not need to provide a full copy of the full contract as it may contain commercially sensitive information. The evidence provided in relation to this appeal meets the criteria POPLA requires, and therefore I am satisfied that the operator has sufficient authority at the site on the date of the parking event. After considering the evidence from both parties the vehicle was parked on the site and failed to obtain a permit during the notified period and therefore did not comply with the terms and conditions of the site. Based on the evidence provided, I am satisfied the parking charge has been issued correctly therefore, I must refuse the appeal.

Re: Civil Enforcement - No permit - Sacred Heart Church Wimbledon
« Reply #42 on: »
Fairly typical and fails to fully address the points raised in your POPLA submission. POPLA have to justify their paymasters and do so by obfuscation in their responses, as you can see.

Nothing to worry about. This has no bearing on anything going forward and you are not bound by the POPLA decision. Don't pay CEL.

For the time being, you now have to ignore all the debt collector letters they are going to send you. Whilst these may appear to be scary, they are in fact powerless to do anything and are simply employed on a no-win, no-fee basis by the operator and use words such as "bailiff" and "CCJ" to try and scare low-hanging fruit on the gullible tree into pooping their pants and paying up. Never, ever engage with a debt collector. You can safely ignore them. You should use their letters to line the bottom of a cat litter tray.

What you are waiting for is to see if when they send a Letter of Claim (LoC). They hope that the initiation of litigation will be another step in scaring the gullible into paying up. Of course, you are not gullible as you are here receiving well worn advice on how to deal with these scams.

Even if the do escalate to a claim, that is a good thing as the county court is the ultimate dispute resolution service. Not that most claims ever reach a hearing when we deal with them. The majority of (over 99%) them end up being discontinued once they realise that you intend to go all the way and they know they are in fact on shaky ground and so go off in search of lower-hanging fruit to go pick on. Most of the few other claims that aren't discontinued are struck out due to procedural deficiencies in the actual claim.

In the remote, worst case scenario, should you be on of the less than one percenters who actually make it to a hearing and are unsuccessful, there is no danger of a CCJ.

So, are you aggrieved enough to want to fight them on this?
Never argue with stupid people. They will drag you down to their level and then beat you with experience” - Mark Twain

Re: Civil Enforcement - No permit - Sacred Heart Church Wimbledon
« Reply #43 on: »
Absolutely.

I have had a similar experience with a different operator, guided expertly by those on this forum and they pulled out at the last minute.

Quite ready to receive (and ignore) debt collection letters.

So for now, wait till the actual letter of claim - got it!

Many thanks as always
Like Like x 1 View List

Re: Civil Enforcement - No permit - Sacred Heart Church Wimbledon
« Reply #44 on: »
As I noted on a previous thread, if you move house before the matter is resolved, make sure you tell CEL your new address for service.