Author Topic: Breast feeding fine - excel NTK - bought ticket 22 minutes after arriving  (Read 5216 times)

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Re: Breast feeding fine - excel NTK - bought ticket 22 minutes after arriving
« Reply #15 on: »
You told us there was a 20 minute consideration period. Where did you get that from?

Now that the operator has nailed its colours to keeper liability under POFA we really need to see the POFA language on the NTK. The last time I asked you to show it, you deleted the entire NTK. Please now post links to externally hosted and properly redacted copies of the entire front and back.
« Last Edit: February 13, 2024, 07:35:14 am by Nosy Parker »

Re: Breast feeding fine - excel NTK - bought ticket 22 minutes after arriving
« Reply #16 on: »
The last time I asked you to show it, you deleted the entire NTK.
It was me who deleted it, as the OP had left personal information visible.

Re: Breast feeding fine - excel NTK - bought ticket 22 minutes after arriving
« Reply #17 on: »
Where did the idea that the driver had a 20 minute consideration period come from?

The keeper mentioning that the driver was breast feeding does not identify the driver. It could be anyone such as the keepers daughter, niece, cousin, friend, work colleague, neighbour and so on.

Playing devils advocate… The keeper says that the driver was breast feeding. Was the keeper in the car at the time? If so, why didn’t the keeper pay for the parking whilst the driver was breast feeding the baby?

“The circumstances cited by the appellant, of which no evidence has been supplied…” is an interesting comment by the operator. Are they really demanding that “evidence” of the woman breast feeding a baby is required? All sorts of connotations there.
Never argue with stupid people. They will drag you down to their level and then beat you with experience” - Mark Twain

Re: Breast feeding fine - excel NTK - bought ticket 22 minutes after arriving
« Reply #18 on: »
Hey, so the 20 minute idea was my false assumption after googling other excel car parks, we live quite a distance from the car park in question so it wasn't possible to go back and look at the signs. It wasn't listed on the NTK. To be honest we're alien to this idea of car park cameras and my wife assumed she could just buy a ticket when she was settled, she'd driven over an hour with a screaming baby on little sleep and was stressed so just immediately fed him before buying the ticket.

Here's a properly redacted image of the NTK - - https://imgur.com/a/Lyuocm8 front

Thanks for all the advice

Re: Breast feeding fine - excel NTK - bought ticket 22 minutes after arriving
« Reply #19 on: »
Where did the idea that the driver had a 20 minute consideration period come from?

The keeper mentioning that the driver was breast feeding does not identify the driver. It could be anyone such as the keepers daughter, niece, cousin, friend, work colleague, neighbour and so on.

Playing devils advocate… The keeper says that the driver was breast feeding. Was the keeper in the car at the time? If so, why didn’t the keeper pay for the parking whilst the driver was breast feeding the baby?

“The circumstances cited by the appellant, of which no evidence has been supplied…” is an interesting comment by the operator. Are they really demanding that “evidence” of the woman breast feeding a baby is required? All sorts of connotations there.

Also just to clarify, I (the keeper) was not in the car, my wife was alone with the baby.

Re: Breast feeding fine - excel NTK - bought ticket 22 minutes after arriving
« Reply #20 on: »
What is the date of contravention, and the date of issue on the notice?

Re: Breast feeding fine - excel NTK - bought ticket 22 minutes after arriving
« Reply #21 on: »
contravention date - 18/01/2024 - PCN NTK issue date - 25/01/2024

Re: Breast feeding fine - excel NTK - bought ticket 22 minutes after arriving
« Reply #22 on: »
I suggest the following:

1.  The keeper was not driving.  The operator, therefore,  purports to hold rely on Schedule 4 to the Protection of Freedoms Act 2012 ('POFA') to hold the keeper liable.  However, in order to do so, the operator must deliver to the keeper within the 'relevant period' as defined in POFA paragraph 9(5) a notice to keeper ('NTK') that satisfies the strict requirements of POFA, including the requirements of POFA paragraph 9(2)(f).  Partial or even substantial compliance with POFA is insufficient.

2. The relevant period defined in POFA paragraph 9(5) is 'the period of 14 days beginning with the day after that on which the specified period of parking ended' which has now expired so the operator cannot now deliver a new POFA-compliant NTK.

3. The operator's purported NTK is not POFA-compliant because it does not include the mandatory warning required by POFA paragraph 9(2)(f) which states that a NTK must:

 warn the keeper that if, after the period of 28 days beginning with the day after that on which the notice is given—

(i) the amount of the unpaid parking charges specified under paragraph (d) has not been paid in full, and
(ii) the creditor does not know both the name of the driver and a current address for service for the driver,

 the creditor will (if all the applicable conditions under this Schedule are met)have the right to recover from the keeper so much of that amount as remains unpaid


4.  The warning in the operator's purported NTK does not include the mandatory statement that the creditor's right to recover from the keeper is subject to all applicable conditions under POFA being met.

5.  The operator may seek to argue that their warning conforms to the wording required by the IPC Code of Practice.  However POFA is an Act of Parliament and is law.  The IPC Code of Conduct is not law.  While the operator might in retrospect consider that it made a mistake in choosing to comply with the IPC Code of Practice rather than the law, IAS adjudicators must apply the law and cannot consider mistakes or extenuating circumstances, whether made by the operator or the IPC.

6.  The operator's summary of the Equality Act is breathtaking in its ignorance.  Reasonable adjustment for breastfeeding mothers is expressly required by the Act and is not limited to the examples cited by the operator. Subsections 17(3) and (4) read as follows:-

(3)A person (A) discriminates against a woman if, in the period of 26 weeks beginning with the day on which she gives birth, A treats her unfavourably because she has given birth.

(4)The reference in subsection (3) to treating a woman unfavourably because she has given birth includes, in particular, a reference to treating her unfavourably because she is breast-feeding.
.

7.  The child in question was less than 26 weeks old at the time of the alleged parking event.  A copy of the child's birth certificate has been uploaded. The operator is not entitled to any further 'evidence' of breastfeeding.

8.  It is immaterial whether the unadjusted consideration period is 5 or 20 minutes.  The adjusted amount of time required by the driver (who was alone with her baby) was 22 minutes and she must be allowed that time by law.  Please note that this is a respectful demand for application of a legal right and not a request for consideration of mitigating or extenuating circumstances
« Last Edit: February 13, 2024, 09:17:23 am by Nosy Parker »
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Re: Breast feeding fine - excel NTK - bought ticket 22 minutes after arriving
« Reply #23 on: »
Wow this is excellent, thanks so much nosy parker, I'll submit the reply and upload the birth certificate and keep you posted

Re: Breast feeding fine - excel NTK - bought ticket 22 minutes after arriving
« Reply #24 on: »
Don’t hold your breath. IAS is not generally regarded as independent and rarely sides with motorists. But no worries because IAS decisions are binding on operators but not on motorists

Re: Breast feeding fine - excel NTK - bought ticket 22 minutes after arriving
« Reply #25 on: »
?
Is there any evidence in the way of successful defences in court that the omission of the phrase (subject to ....') prevents the creditor from relying on keeper liability?

The question is relevant because IAS won't buy it, that's for sure..particularly as de facto they have complied with the other conditions.

OP, I urge caution about getting your hopes up too high on this point.


And as for whether it was given in time, the objective evidence is that it was.

The OP told us, but hasn't shown us, the relevant dates:

contravention date - 18/01/2024 - PCN NTK issue date - 25/01/2024 (deemed given 29th)

therefore the elapsed period is 11 days.


Re: Breast feeding fine - excel NTK - bought ticket 22 minutes after arriving
« Reply #26 on: »
I’m not aware of a court decision on the point and I didn’t suggest it was a winning argument. It’s a credible argument and in my opinion a correct one. I wouldn’t expect the IAS to accept it. But that’s hardly the point. I never expect any argument to win with IAS and especially not this one because it would require an IAS adjudicator to rule that the IPC mandatory NTK doesn’t work, which I can’t see happening.

The point is to show Excel that they have a determined and competent opponent.

If Excel does take the case to court, OP should be able to beat them by following the guidance over on https://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/discussion/4816822/newbies-private-parking-ticket-old-or-new-read-these-faqs-first-thankyou/p1
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Re: Breast feeding fine - excel NTK - bought ticket 22 minutes after arriving
« Reply #27 on: »
Is it agreed that the NTK was given in time?

For the OP's benefit, how does this work 'OP should be able to beat them' given the current objective data.

If this refers to legal prestidigitation at the end game of a potentially 6-year process of attrition involving threatening letters, court procedures and an ever-lengthening thread then IMO the OP should be made aware.

At present I get the impression they think they have a silver bullet.

Re: Breast feeding fine - excel NTK - bought ticket 22 minutes after arriving
« Reply #28 on: »
I don't think I have a silver bullet, I'm quite stubborn though and if the deal is that I put up with all the letters and go to court and worst case scenario have to pay £180 quid instead of the £100 fine then it's worth it for the challenge and the experience and to waste their time. If it's likely to have more serious cost implications than I realise though please let me know.

Re: Breast feeding fine - excel NTK - bought ticket 22 minutes after arriving
« Reply #29 on: »
The costs awarded on the Small Claims Track in the County Court are limited, unless the court deems a party to have behaved 'unreasonably' - this is a high bar, so happens rarely, so as long as you don't do anything particularly stupid that's unlikely to happen.

They may add on £70 of debt collector fees to any claim - these can be defended and are often thrown out as an attempt at 'double recovery'.

We can't provide any guarantees, but for a single parking charge, a loss in court is generally around £200-£250. You're not likely to be forking out thousands if you lose, if that's your concern.

Details of costs are available here - https://www.justice.gov.uk/courts/procedure-rules/civil/rules/part27