Free Traffic Legal Advice

Dear all,

I'd like to ask for your advice on possible next step for the captioned.

Background:
I owned a parking space in the private car park managed by P4Parking at the basement of the building I live. The parking rule requires all cars to display a parking permit under the windshield, but by some reasons my permit was not sticked properly and slipped under a gap so I was issued a PCN on 22/5. I didn't access the car park and my car from 21/5 until 29/5, and I saw that PCN attached on the windshield of my car on 29/5. On 30/5 I appealed because I believe my registration as a parking space owner was enough to show my eligibility to park there, but my appeal was rejected. I accepted the appeal result and paid the fine.

The incident that I'd like to seek your advice:
I believed the case was settled until late September that I received a letter from TCN, a credit collecting company instructed by P4Parking, saying that I have an unsettled fine for a PCN. I was very puzzled and then realised that the PCN stated in that letter is in fact ANOTHER PCN issued on 25/5 (for the same contravention). However, I HAVE NEVER SEEN THIS ANOTHER PCN ATTACHED ON THE WINDSHIELD OF MY CAR. I then called P4Parking customer service and complaint department, but they insisted the officer had correctly attached that PCN to my car.

Evidence to show I have never received the second PCN:
I didn't access my car from 21/5 to 29/5. The two PCNs (if the second one really existed physically) were issued on 22/5 and 25/5 respectively. Hence, when I accessed my car on 29/5, I should be able to see TWO PCNs attached to my car, instead of one. I have requested pictorial proof from P4Parking to show they had placed the PCNs, but all the photos they shared with me show ONLY ONE PCN attached, no matter the photos were taken on either 22/5 or 25/5. They have NEVER showed any photos that shows TWO PCNs attached.

I have record from the logbook of my car showing that I didn't drive the car from 21/5 to 29/5. I also believe the management company of my building has the record of my car entering and leaving the carpark (gate is opened after reading the number plate), and even have CCTV footage which shows the officer didn't attach the 2nd PCN. However, I am still waiting response from the management company after I raised this case to them. And, worse still, I received a 2nd letter today from PCN, saying that they will advise P4Parking to issue a summons to me if I don't pay 7 days after the day of the letter. Funny enough, the letter was dated on 4/10 and today is already 7/10.

Also, it doesn't really make sense that I just appealed for the 1st PCN but not the 2nd PCN together, if I really received the 2nd one. (though I know it may not be a valid evidence)

P4Parking is hired by the management company to manage parking matters (which I believe is solely issuing fines - they don't have other authority such as monitoring the CCTV).

My ask: I'd like to seek your advice on this. What would be the possible next step I should take? Pay the fine now to avoid the summons and continue to seek help from the management company (then ask for refund)? Or insist not to pay and continue the fight or even face the case in court? Thank you!

Quote from: Norman Du on October 11, 2023, 08:32:12 pm

I owned a parking space

Before we explore any technicalities or issues with any of the procedure, it'd be good to get to explore this statement. If you own the land, then who has authorised P4Parking to issue parking charges on your land? I assume it's owned via some sort of leasehold - if so, what does said lease say about the space? (the exact wording will be useful)

I understand what you mean and I would say I don't "own" it technically. I am living in a leasehold flat built by a property developer, and technically the property developer owns property and the carpark. They "lease" the car park spaces to leaseholder like me. And they commissions a management company to manage the property and the parking spaces, the management company then commissions P4Parking.

That is based on my understanding when I lease the property and the parking space. I don't have exact words for that unfortunately.

Quote from: Norman Du on October 11, 2023, 09:23:48 pm

That is based on my understanding when I lease the property and the parking space. I don't have exact words for that unfortunately.

Right - you presumably have some sort of lease for the property? What does this say about parking?

The parking space is rented by my friend and my friend sub-let the space to me. We went through the process to transfer the right to park to me, which is passing me the parking permit and register my car reg with the management company (so the gate can open when it reads the number plate). Given that I don't really have the lease document saying about the parking space.

I wonder if this would actually affect the case if P4Parking really issue a summons to me?

You seem to be drifting ever further from any sort of formal connection to this parking space - in your opening post you owned it, now you rent it from someone who in turn rents it from the actual owner.

I'm not seeking to be pointlessly pedantic here - residential cases can be won or lost based on who has what rights.

You should speak to your friend from whom you rented the space, and see what his lease says about parking.

May I know what exactly I should seek from the lease about parking? As long as a valid permit is displayed clearly, the car be parked at that space.

Do you mean that I have low possibility to win the case given that I am not the legal lessee?

I have a picture of the notice in the car park if this helps.


[ Guests cannot view attachments ]

OP, can we pl wind back.

I believed the case was settled until late September that I received a letter from TCN, a credit collecting company instructed by P4Parking, saying that I have an unsettled fine for a PCN.

So, pl post this letter which from what you say is just a letter, it's not legal proceedings.

Then back to facts:
To whom is the letter addressed?
If you, at what address?
Is this the exact same address as on your V5C (vehicle log book)- pl check, don't assume.(as you 'registered my car registration with the management company' then the address is presumably correct, but pl check).
Pl post a copy of your appeal against the first PCN.

Then the legal process:
If a creditor wishes to hold you liable for a parking charge then they may pursue you as the driver or the registered keeper.
Now, if your appeal against PCN 1 admitted that you were the driver who parked on ** and did not return until ** and that this period spanned both PCNs then they might have cut corners and are simply pursuing you as the driver, a process which has no formality as regards parking legislation. But I doubt they'd be this astute.
They would therefore have to write to the keeper, a Notice to Keeper, advising them of the driver's liability, that they don't know the driver's details, invite the keeper to pay, or spill the beans on the driver or appeal and that if
none of these options is taken that they could pursue the keeper in lieu.

A NTK must be issued to the registered keeper's address at the time of the breach as held by DVLA and obtained from DVLA. Hence my question about your V5C. What they may not do is to use an address from their records(your appeal).

So, pl forget about CCTV, whether because you didn't find a PCN proves one wasn't issued etc, and deal with the issues above.

If the 'letter' is just that, no matter how threatening it might appear, then there's no time imperative and you have time to gather your thoughts and facts.

PS. none of the terms on the parking sign refers to the display of a permit!

Until we've seen the contents of the lease, speculation as to what it does or doesn't prohibit isn't productive.