3. not paying for fuel
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Re: not paying for fuel
« Reply #15 on: »
yes i thought it looked a bit umm, less professional / legal than other letters I've seen.   it reminded me of the awful tv licencing "enforcement" letters..

anyway, what do you think i should do for the best please?
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Re: not paying for fuel
« Reply #16 on: »
If they’re writing on behalf of Morrisons then it seems that the debt remains due to Morrisons and not PMF. So, PMF have no legal right to pursue anything in court.

If you think the debt is due, you could simply pay it (not the “penalty”) and they’d be faced with somehow trying to sue you to recover unspecified debt recovery costs for a debt you’ve already paid.
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Re: not paying for fuel
« Reply #17 on: »
The criminal offence of making off without payment under s. 3 Theft Act 1978 requires a dishonest intent - it does not criminalise an honest mistake.

That does not alter the fact that you failed to pay for the fuel and owe Morissons the cost of the fuel. They would also be entitled to recover any reasonably incurred cost of recovering the money (but not the cost of legal representation in the small claims court). However, it seems that they have farmed it out to a bunch of seemingly dishonest cowboys. If they sought to represent the £50 as some kind of nebulous 'admin fee', then there are many that might take that at face value, but when ostensibly seeking to recover a "penalty", they can FRO.

I have it in mind that *if* they have sold the debt, the purchaser cannot do anything unless Morissons have written to you to inform you of the fact. There are also restrictions on companies buying debts and suing for recover them, although the legislation appears to have been written in ancient Aramaic.

I would be minded to pop into that branch of Morissons next time you are passing, and attempt to settle the debt either at the petrol station or the customer services desk (assuming that it is local to you). I would be further reminded to record the attempt and [politely] demand a receipt if the attempt is successful.
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Re: not paying for fuel
« Reply #18 on: »
thank you for all your replies.

the morrison's branch is indeed local to me, and i am going to go there within the next hour to see exactly if they've passed on the debt, and if I'm able to settle the debt.
i will post an update.
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Re: not paying for fuel
« Reply #19 on: »
I would agree with Andy that the use of the word "penalty" puts Pay My Fuel on very dodgy ground, as do threats of prosecution. And you can't transfer a debt without both parties (Morrisons and Pay My Fuel) contacting the alleged debtor stating this, which they haven't. That means Pay My Fuel can take no legal action for recovery, as it is not their debt to collect. They also have the problem that all they know is the vehicle's registered keeper, who is not necessarily the same person who filled up the car and didn't pay.

Morrisons branch is unlikely to play ball, but maybe a cheque (if you still have a cheque book) to Morrisons HO for the amount plus a small amount to cover their costs "in full and final settlement," giving all relevant details of course.
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Re: not paying for fuel
« Reply #20 on: »
Worth noting that Morrisons petrol stations were bought by MFG a couple of years ago, so although still branded up as Morrisons, Morrisons 'proper' might not be the creditor for the debt for any unpaid fuel.
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Re: not paying for fuel
« Reply #21 on: »
well morrisons' main store were very sympathetic and as helpful as they could be, but because they are separate from the fuel stations, i had to go speak to them.  there, the lone attendant let me use his phone to speak to the manager, who was not very helpful at all.  he first told me I'd have to pay the fine.  he also told me the police were involved (i doubted this, as i have not been contacted by the police, and the letter from Pay My Fuel was issued the day after the offence).  so i asked him for a crime number, to which he replied that i would have to see him in work tomorrow and he would give me the details.  (I'm unable to meet him due to work but he said my wife could call on my behalf), which she is going to do).

morrisons' main store customer services also gave me the main customer services phone number, and also the head office phone number, and from the fuel station i got a business card for MFG, who run the stations apparently, so I'll be calling some of those tomorrow too.

in the meantime, if anyone has any advice, what info should i be trying to obtain from any of these people, I'd be most grateful.
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Re: not paying for fuel
« Reply #22 on: »
I haven’t heard of “Pay My Fuel” (PMF). However there have been a number of threads on another forum with similar topics involving a firm of solicitors called QDR. They operate on a similar model.

Their letters do not mention an intended prosecution nor do they mention a penalty charge.

There were different opinions in responses to those threads. The principal issue that I could see was that QDR make their demand solely on the basis that the person they demand payment from is the Registered Keeper. It seems “Pay My Fuel” do the same. That’s not surprising as they have no idea who was actually responsible for the alleged debt.

QDR have no interest in pursuing anybody other than the RK. In one thread the RK was not in the car at the time and he offered to provide the driver’s details to QDR. They didn’t want to know. In another the debt arose because of a fault with he “Pay at Pump” system. The driver had inserted a card and had £100 holding sum debited. The pump was supposed to see him charged with the cost of the fuel and his £100 returned. It failed to charge for the fuel but his deposit was returned in full and he didn’t notice this until after QDR had become involved. Again, QDR were not interested. I would imagine PMF operate similarly.

My view is that these charges can only be levied on a contractual basis and to do that PMF would have to show who was party to the contract. I don’t see how they can do that in most cases. Only after they have done that would the terms of he contract become relevant.

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"...he first told me I'd have to pay the fine.

He seems as legally ignorant as PMF seem to be. In general, only courts can impose fines.

I take it Morrisons now know that you were the driver at the time?
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Re: not paying for fuel
« Reply #23 on: »
PMF did give me the option to name the driver,  I've attached a photo of the form they sent with the letter.

https://i.postimg.cc/xdNhzKPs/IMG_20260110_WA0026(1)(1).jpg

but yes, morrisons (both the main store and the fuel station) know it was me from the conversations i had with them (a bit silly and short sighted of me perhaps).

and apologies NewJudge, but i don't quite understand your last sentence.    do i need to speak to PMF to get to ascertain who was/is party to any contract? 

and when my wife visits tomorrow, if she gets a crime number, is it worth contacting the police?
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Re: not paying for fuel
« Reply #24 on: »
If it were me, I would make a reasonable attempt to pay MFG for the fuel. If they wanted me to jump through hoops beyond what is reasonably necessary to conduct the transaction, I would take the view that they could FRO.

Whilst some might prefer to play silly b*ggers with "prove it was me", the proper thing to do (if you have morals) is to at least make a reasonable attempt to pay what you owe. And document it as best you can. If they refuse to allow you to pay, that's their problem in my book. Also, as they happily set their fraudulent crooks 'dubious' recovery agents on you, I would have very little sympathy for them.

If they were to take you to court and found a judge sufficiently 'motivated' to look beyond the fraudulent attempts to extort a penalty, the identity of the driver would be a minor consideration.
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Re: not paying for fuel
« Reply #25 on: »
Quote from: The Slithy Tove on Today at 04:09:16 pm
And you can't transfer a debt without both parties (Morrisons and Pay My Fuel) contacting the alleged debtor stating this
Are you sure?
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I am not qualified to give legal advice in the UK. While I will do my best to help you, you should not rely on my advice as if it was given by a lawyer qualified in the UK.
Re: not paying for fuel
« Reply #26 on: »
well i have already stated to morrisons store and the fuel station that I'm happy to pay the debt, but not very happy to pay the extortionate penalty.

but i also don't want the hassle of it going to court, especially if I'm not certain that i wouldn't be made to pay the penalty (especially if it goes up to £150 for not paying promptly), and any other court costs
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Re: not paying for fuel
« Reply #27 on: »
Quote
but i also don't want the hassle of it going to court
A combination of this, and some people's lack of knowledge of the legal position in these cases, are probably key to the success of PayMyFuel's business model.
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Re: not paying for fuel
« Reply #28 on: »
Quote
…well i have already stated to morrisons store and the fuel station that I'm happy to pay the debt, but not very happy to pay the extortionate penalty.

Yes, that’s probably the view most people take. I’m not suggesting that people who have made a mistake should simply not be liable to make good the debt. But all PMF has done is to obtain your details from the DVLA and send you a template letter. Fifty quid is an excessive   charge for that task and three times that for a “late” payment is outrageous.

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A combination of this, and some people's lack of knowledge of the legal position in these cases, are probably key to the success of PayMyFuel's business model.
And there’s the rub. QDR sate in their letter

“You are the current registered keeper of this vehicle and we require you to make full payment of this debt within 7 days.”

They know that some drivers are aware that liability for some decriminalised offences can be transferred to the RK and they rely on that to fool those they deal with that the same applies.

PMF heads their letters “notice of intended prosecution” and threaten court action.
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  3. not paying for fuel