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Messages - gmoney

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Thanks for all your help. Hearing set for Dec 10th. I may revisit the thread for help phrasing the legal argument nearer the time

It's fantastic to know the blade of civic justice is still keen!

3
Initial challenge I just set out the legislation

The rejection stated

Having carefully considered your comments, we do not agree with this assertion. The yellow box marking in question is positioned at a junction where two or more roads meet... We are satisfied that the location meets this criterion. the marking is therefore lawful and has been correctly placed.

Aka computer says no

I believe the appeal is still processing, and the text can't be updated. I'd submitted it before checking on here and seeing the case you linked! But as above, it seems the text can be changed once the appeal has been processed, so I will update it with reference to that case when possible

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Here we are:

Further information about the appeal: In accordance with the London Local Authorities and Transport for London Act 2003, my challenge is on the basis that the contravention did not occur as detailed in the points below.
1. According to “The Traffic Signs Regulations and General Directions 2016” “the location of the “box junction” means an area of the carriageway where the marking has been placed and which is
• (a) at a junction between two or more roads;
• (b) at a gyratory system or roundabout;
• (c) along a length of a two-way road (other than at a junction), the carriageway of which is not greater than 4.5 metres wide at its narrowest point; or
• (d) on the length of road adjacent to the vehicular entrance to the premises of a fire, police or ambulance station

However the box junction at this location on Blackwall Lane does not satisfy any of these conditions. (b), (c) and (d) clearly do not apply.
(a) is not applicable for the following reasons:
• As noted in the Location on the PCN itself, the junction is immediately outside a private business “Meantime Brewery”. As per a photo from Google Street view, this entrance is not a road, but rather the entrance to a business.
• Immediately behind the gate is an additional sign “No Public Access”

• In addition, the gate is locked at the time of the alleged offence, so this is not a road with public access and confirms the usage of this entrance as that to a private business.
• According to Section 192 of the road traffic 1988 a road has a definition of “any highway and any other road to which the public has access”. This is clearly an entrance to a deliveries yard, not a road. I've included an image of the closest turning, 'Mauritius Road', which looks like a road, is a road, and is sign posted as a road. Therefore it would be reasonable to expect a box junction there. It's not reasonable to expect one outside meantime brewery, which makes the existing box junction overly punitive, especially in the context of the offence, which was a slow but steady stream of traffic in the dark over a box in an extremely unusual location. This is not a junction, and should be marked with a Keep Clear sign. In the evidence provided, it can also be seen there is no street lighting, and the box, whilst visible from the camera, was not so from the ground

All this is less relevant however than the sheer fact that a yellow box can only legally be placed at a junction between two roads. The entrance to Meantime Brewery is locked with no public access, so clearly is not a public highway and therefore not a road. Schedule 9, Part 7, 11 (6) of the TSRGD 20016 sets out the permitted locations for yellow boxes. In addition Section 192 of the road traffic 1988 defines a "road" as: “any highway and any other road to which the public has access”. This location does not meet any of these criteria and it is thus an illegal yellow box.

3. The length of time when my car was stationary was precisely 6 seconds and given the entrance at this point on the carriageway was closed, no obstruction or possible obstruction took place. This length of stationary time and the fact no obstruction to other vehicles took place means this PCN is therefore not reasonable.
Regarding the 1st ground for appeal, the adjudicator in a PCN 2220655535 at Addiscombe Road, Croydon as detailed on the London Tribunals Environment and Traffic Adjudicators has noted that a junction with a private business/entrance does not quality as a junction under these regulations.
Regarding the 3rd ground for appeal, the adjudicator in a PCN 216036762A at Kingston Rd, Merton as detailed on the London Tribunals Environment and Traffic Adjudicators has noted that 7 or 8 seconds can just about be said to be nominal or de minimis and therefore not warranting a contravention.
In summary, this is clearly an illegally placed Yellow Box, and the PCN is both extremely punitive by the nature of no reasonable driver expecting it to be there, and unenforceable

That's what I've gone for - not a seasoned PCN pro but hopefully carries the weight of the argument! But not precious, and more than happy to replace with something worded better if you guys feel that would be stronger

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Hi team

You've all been very wonderful; irritatingly the fact that this thread had generated a page 2 had escaped me, so now having gone through the process I'm only just seeing this now!

The initial appeal was refused, on the grounds of essentially 'we think this is a road', which was to be expected. I've logged my appeal with London Tribunals, and put together a long list of reasoning that will have been far more cack handed than whatever you guys would have written, included all the above info RE legality of the box junction + what constitutes a road legally.

Thanks for linking the most recent case; I shall include that in my evidence, and keep you all abreast of any developments!

I was tempted to add a little something at the end about finding it poor that Greenwich borough know that this is an illegal box yet leave it there, but resisted

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This seems like a very harsh interpretation, as the 'telcon road' is separate on google maps, and this is just more 'telcon road' which is unattached, is gated off and appears as a builders yard

in this case that StamfordMan linked above they didn't provide evidence: https://www.ftla.uk/civil-penalty-charge-notices-(councils-tfl-and-so-on)/greenwich-31j-stopping-in-yellow-box-blakwall-lane/

I guess I'll carry on with the appeal that it's not a legal junction and hope for a friendlier judge

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Apologies, classic first time poster error - VRM is RF65 RZC

Video will show me bang to rights, just wondering about the legality of the box in the first place. Appreciate the advice!

9
Hi all

I've recieved a PCN for stopping briefly in the yellow box outside meantime brewery, and the PCN is £160, reduced to £80, which is a little steep.

Grounds for appeal would be that there was slow moving traffic continuously over it, no additional signage, but *critically* it appears a yellow box can only be legally on a road without a junction in the following circs: 'on the length of road adjacent to the vehicular entrance to the premises of a fire, police, or ambulance station'. This is a small box is outside Meantime brewery, and I would have thought should be a KEEP CLEAR rather than a fined yellow box. Would I be correct in thinking that? Or should I bite the bullet and pay>

https://imgpile.com/p/MiSykPQ

Thanks all!

G

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