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Messages - UnfortunatePotato

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1
They often look at things properly at formal stage and it seems this was never authorised as they say as they are obviously not proper disabled bays. One wonders who put those signs up.

My guess is that the maritime museum has done this. Since those bays are directly at it's entrance.

I might find that those signs are removed soon.

2
Hi Everyone,

I received the response to my formal representations, and the PCN has been cancelled.

The council confirmed that the signage was not authorised or installed by the council. Additionally as the bay is not supported by approved traffic regulation order signage, it is not legally enforceable.

Looks like a technicality has ended this before it went to the parking adjudicator.

Thank you all for supporting me through this process.

3
Schedule 6 para. 2(4) of the RTA 1991:

https://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/1991/40/schedule/6

Their website is wholly improper as is the NTO because individually and in combination they misinform an owner of their right to make representations which, as the Act makes clear, is not restricted to a single ground, neither do they fall into the website's arbitrary groups of PCN Improperly Issued etc.


It is wholly improper for the authority to restrict an owner to selecting one ground. So, IMO tick 'contravention did not..', ' penalty charge exceeded..' and 'other reasons'. Under the 'other..' ground put that it is contrary to the Act's requirements for the authority to attempt to restrict an owner to a single ground!

Now do you think they really know what they're doing or are they just doing it 'their' way because that's what they've always done!

This is my problem with local authorities, they don't want to spend money to do anything correctly but want everyone to pay through the nose for X, Y and Z.

Had they repainted those bays to promote them and actually make them usable for disabled drivers it would have been obvious and I'd have never parked there. They simply didn't want to spend the money so just put a sign up and started enforcement, effectively trapping people like myself who have parked there for years and get there early while it is still dark.

Perhaps their thought process was that people would nose dive in, in which case the sign would be right in front of you. They obviously didn't consider that people may dare to reverse, given it is way easier, especially for the first bay.

4
What happens here:

https://pcnportal.north-ayrshire.gov.uk/VEH/Live/3sc/3sc-us/

When I navigate here and enter my reg and penalty charge notice number I get presented with the option to Pay or Appeal.



if I click on appeal it takes me to the same page I initially used to make an informal appeal.



Should I tick "The contravention did not occur"?


5
Can't you send reps online?

It does not appear that I can do this online, after logging back in to the portal the same options to pay or appeal remain but nothing to make formal representations.

Also, which box do I tick?

"The contravention did not occur"
"Other Reason"
"The traffic order is invalid"



6
See if tincombe has anything better but this is more on track.

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I have investigated the grounds on which you can enforce this alleged contravention and you have failed on two counts, both of which mean the contravention did not occur.

1. There is no terms and conditions board citing the traffic regulation order under which penalties may be issued, and the contraventions that may give rise to such penalties. This is an off-street car park and such terms must be displayed.

The only instructions are 'park in marked bays' and that certain classes of vehicle are prohibited. I complied with both instructions.

2. You say that I parked in a disabled bay, but the bay does not conform to a bay that a disabled person would recognise as such, as it is just a standard car bay with no hatched access areas on either side and no legend drawing attention to its status.

The parking sign is set at car level and is invisible to anyone reversing into the bay as I did.

I trust this will result in a speedy cancellation of the PCN, and constructively suggest you post the terms and order governing the car park at the entrance, and ensure that any disabled bays conform to equality legislation and guidance.

Appreciate your help with this, will print this out and get it sent off to them I guess Tuesday at this point with the Easter Weekend.

Will update when I get the inevitable rejection.

7
The reps are too long.

The key is the absence of a terms board setting out grounds and legality of penalties, followed by the poor/non-compliant signage/layout of the disabled bays.

Thanks for the feedback.

I have checked other car parks around where I stay which do have designated disabled bays and these do not have terms boards setting out penalties. The only ones which do are privately run car parks which charge for over staying. I have not focused too much on the terms board but have taken your advice to shorten the reps down.

what do you think of the below?

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Ground: The alleged contravention did not occur

The restriction was not adequately conveyed to a reasonably diligent motorist.

The bay in question appeared indistinguishable from a standard parking bay. It contained no wheelchair symbol or “disabled” legend and was marked in the same manner as adjacent unrestricted bays.

The only upright signage was not visible on approach due to its positioning and the angle of entry into the car park. When the vehicle was parked, the sign became obscured by the vehicle itself and was not visible when exiting from the driver’s side.

There was no clear or prominent information within the car park to indicate that these bays were reserved for disabled use, and the entrance signage simply instructed motorists to park within marked bays, which I did.

In these circumstances, the restriction was not clearly conveyed at the time of parking. As such, no contravention occurred and the Penalty Charge Notice must be cancelled.

8
Hi everyone,

So I have received the NTO.

Can someone review the formal representation I posted earlier in this thread and advise how I should approach this.

It appears they want everything by post, should I print off the pictures they took and send them too as evidence?

Any help would be appreciated.

9
Hey everyone,

Any feedback on the draft I posted?

10
Please to post yr draft here for constructive comment.

Please don't hold back, here is the draft.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------


1. Ground of Representation

The alleged contravention did not occur

2. Summary

The alleged contravention did not occur because the restriction was not adequately conveyed. The signage and bay markings, taken together, failed to clearly indicate that the bay was reserved for disabled use. A reasonably diligent motorist would not have been aware of the restriction at the time of parking.

3. Inadequate Signage

The council relies on the presence of upright signage; however, the relevant legal requirement is not simply that signage exists, but that it clearly and adequately conveys the restriction to motorists.

In this case:

The sign was positioned at a low height and was not prominent
It was not visible on approach due to the angle of entry into the parking area
When the vehicle was parked, the sign became obscured by the vehicle itself
The sign was not visible when exiting from the driver’s side

A motorist is not required to exit their vehicle and search for signage that is not visible from the driving position. The restriction must be apparent at the point of parking, which it was not.

4. Absence of Road Markings / Misleading Bay Appearance

The bay in question:

Contained no wheelchair symbol
Contained no “DISABLED” legend
Was marked in a manner consistent with standard parking bays
Did not conform to the typical visual characteristics of a disabled bay

While I acknowledge that in off-street car parks road markings may not always be strictly required, their absence becomes critical where upright signage is not clearly visible.

In this case, the lack of any surface marking meant there was no reinforcement of the restriction. The bay appeared indistinguishable from a standard parking bay, creating legitimate ambiguity.

5. Failure to Adequately Convey the Restriction

The combined effect of:

Inadequate and poorly positioned signage
Complete absence of identifying road markings
The sign being obscured when the vehicle was parked

means that the restriction was not adequately conveyed to a reasonably diligent motorist.

The council’s assertion that motorists must assess signage after parking is not consistent with the requirement that restrictions must be clearly communicated at the time of parking.

6. Entrance Signage Supports the Appellant’s Interpretation

The entrance signage to the car park instructs motorists to park only within marked bays.

The bay in question was clearly marked as a standard parking bay and contained no indication on the surface that it was reserved for disabled users. I complied with the visible and clearly conveyed instruction provided at the entrance.

7. Legal Position (Scotland)

Enforcement of parking contraventions in Scotland is carried out under the Road Traffic Act 1991 (as amended).

However, a penalty charge is only payable where a contravention has actually occurred. For a contravention to occur, the restriction must be:

Lawfully established, and
Clearly and adequately conveyed to the motorist

The requirement for adequate signage derives from the Road Traffic Regulation Act 1984, with signage and markings governed by the Traffic Signs Regulations and General Directions 2016 (as amended for Scotland).

Where signage fails to clearly convey the restriction, no contravention can be said to have occurred, and enforcement under the 1991 Act framework cannot be sustained.

8. Conclusion

For the reasons outlined above, the restriction was not clearly or adequately conveyed. As such, the alleged contravention did not occur and the Penalty Charge Notice must be cancelled.

11
I am going to wait on the NTO and have a go at appealing this. I don't agree with the councils response.

Can anyone advise if the formal representation will essentially be the same evidence and statement I provide to the parking adjudicator if it gets to that stage?

Additionally I have a draft written up for the formal representation if someone is able to peer review and make any suggestions? Don't know if I should send this privately or not.

12
Are you the registered keeper of the vehicle with current DVLA details?

If so, IMO wait for the NTO.
Yes I am, ok sure. So not sure if you can advise me on the process going forward. In terms of appealing does everything need to be done via post as in print off pictures etc and send things recorded delivery or can this be done via email or electronically?

13
I am now confused, so what approach do I take in terms of going forward?

14
Far as I know there are no regulations about signs in off-street car parks (presumably also in Scotland) but an adjudicator would look at what they've done is adequate (it's not).

And I think there are also no regulations about disabled bays off-street, but other laws such as the Equality Act could be in play (no idea about Scotland).

The terms set out on the board are the critical first line factor to address.

The Equality Act applies to Scotland too.

So do you think I would stand a good chance with an adjudicator given the evidence provided here?

Should I draft up a formal representation?

Also do you know if the formal representations are fobbed off like the informal appeals?

15
Thanks, I feel like the main basis of my argument is going to be that the parking restriction was not clearly conveyed due to the position of the signage in relation to the car when approaching the bay, the fact the sign was too low and out of sight when I exited the drivers side, and that the restriction was not reinforced with bay markings.

IMO, no.

The signs are meaningless as regards being penalised because nowhere in the car park does it state that if a motorist does not comply with signs indicating bays reserved to BB holders then they could be penalised. A penalty is a powerful weapon reserved to the state and the state must meet certain tests before penalising people.

You refer to bay markings, but there aren't any for car parks.
You refer to regulations regarding the size and marking of disabled bays. But there aren't any.

I am confused because someone said this earlier.

So essentially, your appeal argument is inadequate signage, and if the bay had been marked on the tarmac as well as having the sign, plus the signs being mounted higher up, you'd not have parked there. So submit an informal challenge on those lines and post up their response when you get it.

Not sure the sign upon entering the car park failing to mention fines is as relevant as inadequate signage. However it may not properly communicate any additional restrictions. Perhaps I could use the following at the end of a formal appeal?

"The entrance signage instructs motorists to park only within marked bays. The bay in question was marked in a manner consistent with standard parking bays and contained no surface markings or legend to indicate that it was reserved for disabled use. I complied with the clearly visible instructions provided."

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