Show Posts - bunny_hop

Haringey decided not to contest the appeal, presumably when they realised they were up against Mr Mustard.Many thanks for everyone's help - and for Mr Mustard's work on the appeal.

Ok will do, thanks.

Ok thanks Mr Mustard. I don't think I'd be able to clearly present it myself as it is too convoluted for me - so if either yourself or Hippocrates would be happy to help with the adjudication / representation, that would be much appreciated.So what do I write on the appeal form which has to be sent for adjudication - and should I get it in sooner rather than later (i.e. before the 14 days discount limit which may or may not be around 11th December or 19th December according to the key events timetable on Haringey's portal - linked in on one of my previous posts).Thank you.

Ok, thank you.

Hi again.So are you saying you don't think it's worth going ahead to adjudication then? Haringey have fully considered or they haven't ?When you say technical - do you mean in terms of PCN wording or something else?Is it worth stating my case about lack of / inadequate warning signs about entering a LTN?Thanks

Thanks Hippocrates for reply - sorry for delay in responding. I've not gone through this process to adjudication before so not familiar with all the terminology I'm afraid. When you say post up full formal representations - do you mean when I've written up the details of appeal on the notice of appeal form? What do you mean if they have failed to consider? Plus thanks for offering to represent me at tribunal.What is my appeal argument? Do I repeat what I wrote to the council  - that the PCN does not comply (stated date of notice rather than date of service), and add that I found the one warning sign before entering the LTN (and the lack of anymore warning signs) on my approach turning into the road, to be inadequate?Hopefully I can complete the form and post up tomorrow.Thanks in advance for any guidance.

Hi, rejection letter as predicted has arrived (27th Nov). Will try to upload letter which is saved as PDF.Can anyone please kindly advise as to whether it's still worth carrying on to adjudication or pay up while still at reduced rate (letter dated Thursday 24th Nov and arrived Monday 27th so have until 10th December?).Thanks. [ Guests cannot view attachments ]

Ok thanks, good to know. Will post council reply / rejection when it arrives.

Thanks Pastmybest and everyone for their help so far.I will submit the first representation about the PCN wording being non-compliant and let you know the council's response.If they reject, hopefully I can get further advice about how best to appeal at Tribunal stage.Many thanks so far.

Thanks Mr Mustard for your reply. I'm confused by the contradictory statements I've read on traffic forums so far on the wording issue. Just to clarify - Is the PCN wording requirement according to the London LA and TfL Act 2003?So the PCN must have Date of Service for the bits about increased charge and issuing of Charge Certificate, whereas Date of Notice must be stated for the payment bit?What is the strategy reasoning then? Tell the council the wording is wrong, expect to have this rejected (I'm not sure whether Haringey blanket rejects or not) and then have to go to tribunal? And then just argue on this point at tribunal - so at no stage include request for council’s discretion (was unaware of new LTN, non-resident first time mistake) and/or mitigation (lack of warning signs on my approach route and only one unlit non-traffic sign poorly positioned right before zebra crossing, non resident not knowing road name being referred to)?Any further advice about strategy and what to draft for first response would be great, as want to get reply sent by / before Sunday 29th which is when 14 day discount ends.Thanks.

Any help please!! - I've only two days left to appeal to council (by this Friday 29th). I wanted advice on which main points to include for drafting my first response to council to send today hopefully (??inadequate signage on approach fron Durnsford Rd, unlit non-traffic sign difficult to see at night, non-resident would not know road names mentioned??) and what if anything to hold back for adjudication stage?Plus if I send a link of photo evidence of poor signage - how do I set it up pix so I can see if viewed at all.Many thanks.

Thanks Incandescent, I agree about the warning sign. I'm not in the habit of wilfully ignoring signs and putting myself in a no-go area. I would have gone another way round had I known. I think I'm happy to test this all way to adjudication, because hopefully the council will be advised to warn motorists sufficiently.I'd like to set up the images, as cp8759 suggested, with a click / view counter to see if the council actually considers the evidence - can someone kindly tell me the best way to do this please?And what main points should I raise first with the council? Explain as mitigation I was unfamiliar with the new scheme, driving back at night, and inadequate signage failed to warn me from driving form Durnsford Rd direction via Gordon Road (unlike if I were coming from the opposite direction where warnings are obvious turning from Bounds Green Road into Gordon Rd)? And had I known I wouldn't have gone through Gordon Rd? And because signage was inadequate, it was unclear whether I was already breaking a contravention by driving down Gordon Rd as well, so was unsure if doing a u-turn would have avoided the contravention of exiting into Bounds Green Rd as well?Or is that too much? Which points should I hold back for adjudication? What would be the main points to raise at adjudication?Any further advice is much appreciated. Thanks!

Thanks for your comments. Unfortunately it was confusing for me because of the lack of signage warning motorists not to drive through Gordon Rd because it has been turned into low traffic scheme. I don't think I'm the only motorist to find it more difficult to take in what signage is there at night on an unfamiliar route (or with unfamiliar new restrictions). It would seem you can't turn into the road from Bounds Green Rd where the camera is, the signage makes it clear on Bounds Green Rd itself, but not if you come from the other direction. Then it is OK to to turn into Gordon Rd from the other direction where there is no signage, and then get caught out.Quote from: cp8759 on 23 Oct, 2023 23:16It doesn't look that dark to me.Unfortunately it was dark enough for me at 11.30pm to miss spotting the only advance warning sign (see first pic - a small sign on Durnsford Rd just before a zebra crossing) before turning into Woodfield Way/Gordon Rd - otherwise I wouldn't have turned into Gordon Rd had I known. The first signage to show there was any type of access restriction in place was right at the end of Gordon road as I was leaving it, so confusing if you're not meant to go down Gordon Rd in the first place and don't see any signage until it's too late. I wasn't sure if I was allowed in Gordon Rd at all, so maybe pointless doing a u-turn just to avoid exiting onto Bounds Green Rd.Quote from: cp8759 on 23 Oct, 2023 23:16The TMO is The Haringey (Prescribed Routes) (No. 12) setting it up view a click / view counter so we can prove whether they're looked at your supporting evidence. Sounds good. How does one do that?

Quote from: Incandescent on 23 Oct, 2023 21:06Two things really, (1) is the TRO still valid, and (2) is the signage adequate ?What was your route that got you to the Gordon Road and Bounds green Lane junction ?Thanks - I was just posting pix after your post!-Don't know but will try to find out if TRO still valid.-Just posted photos which I think show signage on approach was not adequate.-So would say along Durnsford Rd poor  / insufficient warning and certainly no warning when turning into Woodfield Way and Gordon Rd until you get right to the end of Gordon Rd exit onto Bounds Green Rd.-Yes, did pass restriction side, but only realised when it was too late, due to poor advance signage and difficult to interpret in the dark on unfamiliar route (unfamiliar in sense I had not used this route for a long time and was unaware a new scheme had been imposed). I thought it meant I wasn't meant to have driven into Gordon Road at all, so doing a u-turn would not have made any difference. That's what I thought at the time, but wasn't sure because I found restriction and signage confusing. Suppose it's worth a try appealing as really can't afford £65 let alone £130 fine at the mo.

Excuse this longer posting - it is to explain the series of pictures taken to document the poor / lack of warning signage before and during the turning into Woodfield Way and Gordon Road. This would explain why I didn't see or wasn't aware of any clear warnings that a new restriction had been imposed, and that I was no longer meant to be turning into Gordon Rd in order to access Bounds Green Rd.I found the signage leading up to the actual road and restricted turning either non-existent, poor or barely visible, particularly for a non-resident unfamiliar with road names, driving late at night and unaware of a new traffic scheme having been imposed. I don't know if that is a strong enough defence or offers sufficient mitigation to appeal.The route I was driving is one I used to use occasionally when I lived in the area a few years ago, when no restrictions existed back then. Since moving out of the area, on this occasion of driving the same route, it was the first time doing so in a couple of years, hence I had missed out on any publicity or warnings that a new temporary traffic scheme was being introduced and therefore wasn't expecting any restrictions on my route and not especially looking out for new signage. I don't recall seeing anything that would have made me aware until it was too late.Durnsford Rd, the main road leading up to the Woodfield Way, was the approach I was coming from (not the other way from Bounds Green Rd) and found there was only one small sign on Durnsford Rd some distance away from the actual turning into Woodfield Way, which would have been difficult to read especially in the dark, and was positioned just before a zebra crossing, which I would be prioritising my focus on at that point, again particularly at night when dark. It stated 'No access to Bounds Green Rd via Woodfield Way' - I did not know the name of Woodfield Way before now, so even if I had been able to clock it (or had time to clock it) and read it properly, I would not have known which road the sign was referring to. This is the small warning sign  - https://www.flickr.com/photos/199367134@N05/53280473021/in/dateposted-public/After this sign, there are no more warning signs at the turning into Woodfield Way, neither on Woodfield Way or Grodon Road itself until right at the very end of Gordon Road and exit into Bounds Green Road, when it is already too late.No signs at turning from Durnsford Rd into Woodfield Way - https://www.flickr.com/photos/199367134@N05/53280501696/in/dateposted-public/No signs in Woodfield Way before turning into Gordon Road - https://www.flickr.com/photos/199367134@N05/53280793968/in/dateposted-public/No signs at turning from Woodfield Way into Gordon Rd - https://www.flickr.com/photos/199367134@N05/53280515361/in/dateposted-public/Still no warning signs as you round bend in Gordon Rd - https://www.flickr.com/photos/199367134@N05/53280801743/in/dateposted-public/Still no signs in Gordon Road before end of road - https://www.flickr.com/photos/199367134@N05/53280989920/in/dateposted-public/These are only warning signs right at end of Gordon Road as exiting into Bounds Green Road which are difficult to interpret until you get right up to the exit, and in the dark I found these confusing, as I had not seen the clearer signs on other side, the ones you would see from the Bounds Green Rd approach. I didn't see these as approached from Durnsford Rd, not Bounds Green Rd.https://www.flickr.com/photos/199367134@N05/53280808873/in/dateposted-public/From a distance, when unfamiliar with a new traffic scheme, these signs are confusing without sufficient prior warning signage, and I found it difficult to interpret what was going on in the dark. However, I was not aware of this signage until too late, upon exiting the road. https://www.flickr.com/photos/199367134@N05/53280816618/in/dateposted-public/These are signs seen from Bounds Green Rd side (after exiting) which are more obvious that motorists are not meant to have access. If you are travelling along Bounds Green Road on approach (which I wasn't - I was exiting onto Bounds Green Rd), it is easier to see the sign stating 'no access to Durnsford Rd'. Unfortunately I did not see this signage on this side until actually exiting into the main road (Bounds Green Rd) when I saw these in my rear view mirror. But I still was not fully aware of the exact restriction as I didn't have time or capacity to properly read/study these while driving out onto a main road.https://www.flickr.com/photos/199367134@N05/53279657082/in/dateposted-public/