Show Posts - DevonFox

Hi All,An update on our case, we were successful in our appeal!A big thank you to cp8759 who represented us.The point in cp8759's appeal letter is what won in for us"Furthermore, the contravention alleged on the PCN is "Parked without a valid virtual permit or clearly displaying a valid physical permit where required", but it is not physically possible to display a virtual permit. Even if a valid virtual permit is in force, this will not be displayed. The allegation stated on the PCN is essentially meaningless."This was wriin the adjudicator's decision:"13. I agree that the contravention alleged in the PCN does not correspond with thecontravention that occurred on this occasion and that they could not, in fact, have done whatthe PCN alleges they failed to do, for the reasons Mr and Mrs x have given.14. I am reinforced in this view because the standard descriptions of contraventions usedby councils nationally express contraventions involving virtual tickets/permits differently, andin a way that does not allege a failure to display. I refer, in particular to contravention codes12, 16, 19 and 85 in the Standard PCN Codes list. The latter, in particular, describes thecontravention of being “Parked without a valid virtual permit or clearly displaying a validphysical permit where required”. This and contravention codes 12, 16 and 19 all distinguishbetween being parked without a valid virtual permit/ with an invalid virtual permit (with noreference to displaying) on the one hand; and and being parked without clearly displaying avalid physical permit, or voucher or pay and display ticket (or displaying an invalid physicalpermit or voucher or pay and display ticket) on the other. Failure to display has no part ofthese contraventions where a virtual permit/ticket is concerned. In that case the contraventionis simply being with or without an invalid/valid permit, in the sense of not having a valid virtualpermit or having an invalid virtual permit, not failing to display it."Hopefully I won't get another ticket in the future. Good luck to everyone fighting their tickets!ThanksVin

Thank you  for your reply cp8759, we'll go for a video hearing!What do you think our chances are of success? Neither my wife or I have any experience with any hearings of any kind, so if one of you could assist that would be much appreciated.Alternatively if you think in this case it'd be better for us to represent ourselves, we're also happy to do that.ThanksVin

Hi All,So Plymouth Council responded to our evidence and this was their authority summary:The Council remain satisfied that on the 02/10/2023 BN66YSG was parked in the Mayflower East car park without a valid ticket or session. The informal decline letter (evidence 11) explained that the authority was not willing to cancel the Penalty Charge Notice due to the driver entering the wrong registration.  A motorist is asked to confirm the registration before completing a session, as such the Council remain satisfied that reasonable notification to amend the oversight was available. Contravention codes are not set in legislation. They are to give a general indication of the reason for a contravention.  In this instance the contravention selected by the issuing Officer is 83-suffix 4.  The Notice of Rejection (evidence 14) explained that the Authority remain satisfied this contravention code is applicable.Whilst the consolidation Order (evidence 16) does not contain the facility for electronic payment, the requirement to obtain a valid session by entering the vehicle registration is supported by the relevant amendments (evidence 18 & 19). The Council remain satisfied that the correct information is given on the Penalty Charge Notice (evidence and Notice to Owner (evidence 12). As a valid session was not held for BN66YSG on the date of contravention the Council remain satisfied that the contravention occurred and enforcement is appropriate.In addition they attached a TRO/schedule and attached all of the correspondence and an internal processing document.My wife needs to respond by the 01/02. We have the option of a video hearing or a telephone hearing. I am leaning toward the video hearing.I have the opportunity to add comments to the the council's evidence or submit some more evidence. Is there anything which we should add / anything which we can use to argue against their points?Thank you in advance!Vin

Submitted!Following on from cp8759's letter, I'll read up on- 'The City of Plymouth (Off-Street Parking Places) Order 2007 as amended by The City of Plymouth (Off-Street Parking Places) Amendment Order No. 14) 2017 and The City of Plymouth (Off-Street Parking Places) Notice of Variation (No.1) 2023.'and- regulation 3(1)(c) of The Civil Enforcement of Road Traffic Contraventions (Representations and Appeals) (England) Regulations 2022.On those points what is the likelihood of the adjudicator questioning us on these legalistic points and what would be a good response?Will keep you updated on the correspondence.St Christopher pray for us!

Thank you Incandescent, yes it all comes out of the same pot!I am going to try and submit the appeal tomorrow. My wife is happy to represent herself so I'll reword the letter.If we have a hearing are we both able to be there, or would it just be my wife?Thank youVin

Hi All, The images in my last post don't seem to be showing but the links do take you to the correct pages.I have a question about the appeal. In the council's response to our representation they refer to me as the 'third party' as the vehicle belongs to my wife. On the traffic penalty tribunal website should I appeal on my Wife's behalf or should I write the appeal and get my wife to rewrite the below from her perspective? Draft Appeal:Dear Sir/Madam,On the 2nd of October my wife, the registered owner and I parked the car, registration BN66YSG at Mayflower Street East Car Park in Plymouth. The parking payment system had changed since my last visit to the carpark and I paid £3-80 for 3 hours parking. I paid for parking with my debit card and when the machine asked if I wanted a receipt I selected 'yes' but the machine did not give me a receipt.Upon returning to the car I noticed a penalty charge notice on the windscreen. As the traffic warden was still walking around the car park, I approached him to question why I had been given a ticket as I had paid for parking. During our conversation it became clear I had entered the wrong registration. I had entered my own car's, FN55JUC and not my wife's. I explained this to the traffic warden, who was unwilling to revoke the ticket.The PCN states the following:Contravention Code: 834834-Parked in a car park without clearly displaying a valid virtual pay & display ticket or voucher or parking clock.By not receiving a receipt from the machine I believe I was put at a serious disadvantage. Firstly, I had been denied the opportunity to check that the vehicle registration was correct on a receipt which should've been issued. Secondly, I was unable to prove to the traffic warden that I had paid for parking by displaying a receipt on the car's dashboard. In the informal representation I made to the council I mentioned the above along with a screenshot of my bank statement showing a transaction of £3-80. In their response, Plymouth City Council acknowledged that I had paid for parking using the registration FN55JUC but were unwilling to cancel the PCN.After seeking advice, I decided to challenge liability for PCN PL10903622 on the ground that the alleged contravention did not occur. Firstly Plymouth City Council allege that parking may be paid for via a cashless system, but upon consulting The City of Plymouth (Off-Street Parking Places) Order 2007 as amended by The City of Plymouth (Off-Street Parking Places) Amendment Order No. 14) 2017 and The City of Plymouth (Off-Street Parking Places) Notice of Variation (No.1) 2023, the order does not provide any cashless payment option at all.Furthermore, the contravention alleged on the PCN is "Parked without a valid virtual permit or clearly displaying a valid physical permit where required", but it is not physically possible to display a virtual permit. Even if a valid virtual permit is in force, this will not be displayed. The allegation stated on the PCN is essentially meaningless.I further alleged a procedural impropriety because the penalty charge notices does not convey the requirements of regulation 3(1)(c) of The Civil Enforcement of Road Traffic Contraventions (Representations and Appeals) (England) Regulations 2022.Plymouth city council considered the above representations but decided not to cancel the PCN and I have now been given the opportunity to appeal to you the Traffic Penalty Tribunal.In addition to the above, by not making sure that their machine was sufficiently stocked with paper, Plymouth City Council have decided to punish us for something which was impossible at the time.The contravention states:Parked in a car park without clearly displaying a valid virtual pay & display ticket or voucher or parking clock.By not being given a receipt I was unable to display a physical ticket on the dashboard nor were we able to check that the virtual pay and display was correct. The car park also provides no facility to check virtual pay and display tickets after payment.After the incident I was able to provide a virtual bank statement proving payment, but Plymouth City Council were still unwilling to cancel the PCN.Yours faithfully,Mr xxxxx xxxxxxxxAny feedback/ improvements would be greatly appreciated.Thank you in advance!Vin

Hi All, I hope you had a good Christmas. I was just trying to write my appeal to the Tribunal (please see my next post), when I noticed that I had missed a page on my previous post, sorry about that!So I have got my laptop out and have uploaded the photos to imgur, here they are:Page 1Page 2Page 3Page 4Page 5Their arguments against our representations are on pages 2, 3 and 4.Thanks Vin

Hi All,I hope you are all well.Unfortunately we received a Notice Of Rejection Of Representations through the post today It's been addressed to my wife and I am referred to as 'a third party'.I have been given the opportunity to appeal to the traffic Penalty tribunal.https://photos.app.goo.gl/nCcY16KwVkqterDL7 https://photos.app.goo.gl/owcMLVGGVpjzxPk37https://photos.app.goo.gl/i82hhCG45oeq4wab7https://photos.app.goo.gl/cr269DCWdm8Y6e4h7Thank you in advanceVin

Hi All, Just an update, we received a letter yesterday saying :"Your case has now been placed on hold while the circumstances within your correspondence are investigated. A response will be sent to you in due course."https://photos.app.goo.gl/FSJaFQroYQaWLNVr5ThanksVin

Hi cp8759, Thank you for your reply. I have submitted the appeal. The text box which they gave for entering the appeal had a max number of characters of 1000, so I attached the letter as a pdf. I have taken a screenshot of the appeal complete screen. It said they have 56 days to respond.Thank you for your help I'll let you know the outcome!Vin

Hello cp8759 and Incandescent,I hope you're both well.The notice to owner came through but it's addressed to my wife (she's the registered owner). It is dated as posted on the 14/11/23 but we only opened it this morning as we were away in Italy on holiday (15-21 Nov) does this change when it was served? The earliest I could've actually read it was the early hours of this morning as we flew in late to stansted and then drove back to Plymouth last night.Please find below the link to the photos:Page 1https://photos.app.goo.gl/YFp4DVJaYePn5dbG9Page 2https://photos.app.goo.gl/KPyYYinAZo3q8AH9APage 3https://photos.app.goo.gl/mJUrzVLWW7fA1guG9Page 4https://photos.app.goo.gl/kavcxVSgknQBENef6What are my next steps for the appeal? What is your advice?I was thinking of writing something like this in the body of the appeal:---I input the wrong registration number plate at the parking machine. From the previous informal representation I made, it was acknowledged that I had paid for parking and didn't overstay what was paid for. This was an honest mistake as I was driving my wife's car and not my own.What was not acknowledged in the response to the original informal representation was that the machine was not giving receipts. When the machine asked if I wanted a receipt after selecting yes, no receipt was provided.I think this parking fine is unfair because had I have been given a receipt:1) There is a good chance that upon checking the receipt I would have noticed my mistake and bought another parking ticket.2) If I had placed the receipt on the dashboard. This would have been proof of that parking was purchased.----On point 2, would this be true? If a pay and display parking ticket with the wrong number plate is displayed in your car, can you still be given a fine?If so, surely proof of the virtual payment in retrospect should be enough? The more I think about it the more unreasonable it seems!Thank you in advance for your help!Vin

Thank you Incandescent !

Thank you cp8759 for your help. So does the notice to owner usually come through after the 28 days have elapsed? As we have not had anything in the post yet.Are you able to point me towards any historic or posts similar to mine which I can read up on?Thank you again!

Hello cp8759,Thank you for looking into this for me and your time for finding and posting the images.Sorry for my delayed reply, it slipped my mind!I tried to do an upload on imgur for the back of the ticket but I am having difficulty. Google link: https://photos.app.goo.gl/8suC6tjYxHSnWQEY8 Looking at the last correspondence, I have 14 days from the date of the letter being served with the note taken to be served after the second working day of the letter. I interpret this that the deadline to pay the discounted rate is the 23rd of October. Is this right?(Two working days after Thursday 5th October is Friday 9th of October. +14 days = 23rd).What is the process for the next stage of appeal? If I appeal will I lose my £25 discount rate? Do you think I have a case? I noticed that on the photos you posted the traffic officer did take a phot of the dashboard where a receipt would have been placed if I had one, if the number plate on the receipt had been different but displayed, would Instill have been given a parking ticket?Thank youVin

Hi All, Just posted this on pepipoo and was told to post here, any help would be greatly appreciated.Hello All,I found this site from Martin's Money parking forum. I would appreciate any help or advice.Date of ticket: Monday the 2nd of October.Location: https://maps.app.goo.gl/SG6E1rwkvovRNr6CAWe were on our way for a meal for my wife's birthday and we were running late. I parked at a small council run multistorey car park which used flowbird parking. I didn't have the app so I went to the machine and paid with card. Although I didn't realise at the time I typed in my car's reg and not my wife's. Although a receipt was not required, the machine it asked if I wanted one so I clicked yes. Unfortunately the machine didn't give me one (must have run out of paper) so we went about our day.I returned to the car park later on in the day and saw that I had a ticket. The traffic warden had just done his round and was still in the carpark. I caught him up and politely asked why I had a ticket as I had paid, he asked for my reg and at that point I realised I had put in the wrong reg. Although I explained my mistake he would not cancel the parking ticket.I appealed to the council because I thought it to be a reasonable grounds for appeal and also because i thought if I had been given a receipt from the machine there is a good chance I would've spotted my mistake.Unfortunately they have rejected my appeal. I now realise I should've come here before my first appeal sad.gifHere is the parking ticket: https://photos.app.goo.gl/11qKW8qKaGo5PXtQ9This was my original appeal:"Hello,Today I went with my wife and baby into town to go for a meal at lunchtime and run some errands in the city center.Upon returning to the car I was shocked to discover we had a parking ticket.My car has broken down and so we used my wife's car. I mistakenly entered my own car's registration (FN55JUC) instead of my wife's and had paid for 3hours parking (£3.80).I can provide a picture of the bank transaction and also a picture of the car leaving the car park within the three hours if you require.This was an honest mistake and I would appreciate if you could cancel the ticket.A mitigating circumstance which may have made me realise was not getting a ticket from the machine. I requested a receipt which I would normally put on the dashboard of the car but the machine had ran out and didn't give me one.Thank you"I attached the picture of 3-80 bank transaction to the appeal.The council's responsehttps://photos.app.goo.gl/SQJBN1tUzxqmGam58After receiving the response I double checked the ticket and it says the contravention is:'parked in a car park without clearly displaying a virtual pay and display ticket or voucher or parking clock'.I would appreciate any help or advice which could be given.If I had been given a receipt but not noticed the wrong number plate but placed it on the dashboard would that have been sufficient to prove payment for parking, and would I have been given a ticket?Could the argument that by not having a receipt to check if I had made a mistake, I was put at a disadvantage be valid?Thank you in advance.Vin