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Messages - YBJnoMore

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Civil penalty charge notices (Councils, TFL and so on) / Re: Manchester City Council - 34 Bus Lane - Oxford Street (Whitworth Street West To Chepstow Street)
« on: March 23, 2024, 12:35:29 pm »
Hi people have I made an error I have just gone to pay my PCN and the charge has risen to 60 Did I work mess up my numbers for the date of service? I thought it began the after the 2nd day of posting.

It was sent on 28th of Feb. Anything I can do?

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Civil penalty charge notices (Councils, TFL and so on) / Re: Manchester City Council - 34 Bus Lane - Oxford Street (Whitworth Street West To Chepstow Street)
« on: March 21, 2024, 01:31:56 pm »
Yeah I can see they have adapted the advance signs (I didn't see them on the day however.. a bus in front blocks so much of your view its a pain).. I will just have to accept this one and blame it low brain function from giving blood and having to change route home due to traffic haha!

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Civil penalty charge notices (Councils, TFL and so on) / Manchester City Council - 34 Bus Lane - Oxford Street (Whitworth Street West To Chepstow Street)
« on: March 19, 2024, 06:54:15 pm »
Hi all, sorry for the late post of my PCN the 21 days discount ends on the 25th March I think it is. I was going to surrender and pay this without challenge but I thought I would double check before hand as I could not easily see the signs with the building works and a bus ahead of me.

I did have a read on previous cases specifically this one that states the difficult in seeing the signing due to clutter and traffic and the amount of Pcns issued on this specific road. But as this has been superseded I resigned myself to paying but thought I would check before hand if these points do not stand anymore?

Emanuel Watkins and others v Manchester City Council (MC01044-1808, 29 January 2019)
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1c_I9Gskf8J2SM3g_lzCg3u-n7q-h7T_L/edit

CCTV -

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OHwHFSO-dIM


Maps - https://maps.app.goo.gl/ENJB1wHFCZxj5AYq6

Thanks All :)



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Civil penalty charge notices (Councils, TFL and so on) / Re: TFL YBJ Code 31 Battersea bridge Rd/ Battersea Church Rd
« on: March 02, 2024, 08:48:25 pm »
No I haven't received anything, I had to check the web portal only way I found out. Should I have received something in the post?

And I shall do was just doing some research before I asked for help haha :)

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Civil penalty charge notices (Councils, TFL and so on) / Re: TFL YBJ Code 31 Battersea bridge Rd/ Battersea Church Rd
« on: March 01, 2024, 04:08:23 pm »
Just wish to update this and the council accepted my appeal! I am unsure if it was because of the time to process the appeal or the grounds either thanks everyone! Unfortunately I checked this because I got one again :(

11 January 2024Cancelled
The Penalty Charge Notice has been cancelled.

11 January 2024Representation Accepted
TfL has accepted a representation received for this PCN.

12 October 2023Representation submitted Under review
N/A

11 October 2023Email dispatched to: ******@gmail.com Subj Representation receipted
N/A

11 October 2023On Hold: SUS26 - Representation Received
N/A

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Civil penalty charge notices (Councils, TFL and so on) / Re: TFL YBJ Code 31 Battersea bridge Rd/ Battersea Church Rd
« on: October 10, 2023, 10:24:22 pm »
Does anyone have anything further to add before submitting the appeal tomorrow?. So far I am just going to only use the two point MrChips recommends.

Thanks :)

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Civil penalty charge notices (Councils, TFL and so on) / Re: TFL YBJ Code 31 Battersea bridge Rd/ Battersea Church Rd
« on: October 09, 2023, 06:21:00 pm »
Thanks MrChips, I was mindful about about seemingly in their eyes I am throwing anything at the appeal to hope something is relevant.
I was reading more about the 31vs 31J and even saw an Adjudicator say it is the wrong code but it is minor and does not change the result. So yeah think that is probably a no go (I have tried finding it again to link but lost it sorry)

My mistake for using the outdated regs. I have been studying the new ones and they have greatly relaxed the code for the YBJ like you say. Although touching the Kerbs does not affect the shape I think this is where they might be able to argue a red route is allowed. Under chapter 5 8.4.1 ". It might also be appropriate for parts of the boundary line to be placed adjacent to the kerb at a road junction" I am not the best at understanding legislation but does that also look like touching the kerb is not required.


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Civil penalty charge notices (Councils, TFL and so on) / Re: TFL YBJ Code 31 Battersea bridge Rd/ Battersea Church Rd
« on: October 09, 2023, 03:15:26 pm »
I got my FOI Back. And they have done it for the wrong junction! And the FOI website is down it seems. I will post it here anyways, if anyone knows the junction it may be use for someone else haha.

Our ref: FOI-2141-2324/GH

Thank you for your request received by Transport for London (TfL) on 18 September 2023 asking for information about the yellow box Junction Battersea Bridge/ Battersea Church Road.

Your request has been considered under the requirements of the Freedom of Information Act 2000 and our information access policy. I can confirm that we do hold the information you require.

1. Does this yellow box junction have an exemption from the Secretary of State for Transport, for the yellow box not to touch the kerb.

This yellow box junction (YBJ) has been authorised for use by the Department for Transport (DfT) as per The Traffic, Signs, Regulations and General Directions (TSRGD) 2016. The purpose of yellow box junctions are to keep traffic flowing and we can confirm that this box junction is fully compliant with the TSRGD 2016.

2. Do you have a report detailing the visibility of the YBJ, considering the street furniture and also how the YBJ is raised from surrounding roads.

The YBJ is marked on the road according to the requirements of TSRGD 2016.

3. Can your provide a list of all the Contravention codes for PCNs and one’s issued using different evidence.

The contravention code for a YBJ contravention is 31

4. Was denied.

5. Can you provide most recent pictures showing the layout of the junction.

[ Guests cannot view attachments ]

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Civil penalty charge notices (Councils, TFL and so on) / Re: TFL YBJ Code 31 Battersea bridge Rd/ Battersea Church Rd
« on: October 09, 2023, 02:47:32 pm »
Here is my draft, I have included all points that are not subjective. Thanks Again everyone! :)


Dear Sir/Madam
Ref: PCN Number: GX09900630

My grounds of my appeal are that:
The contravention alleged by the Authority on the Penalty Charge Notice did not occur.

1. Paragraph 7(1) of Part II of Schedule 19 to the Traffic Signs Regulations and General Directions 2002 provides
that no person shall cause a vehicle to enter a box junction so that the vehicle has to stop within the box junction
due to the presence of stationary vehicle. The councils evidence does not show my vehicle entering the Yellow Box Junction. And the offence is completed at entry of the YBJ which is not shown. London Tribunal case 2130491073, 2160264616, 2230099245

2. The top left hand corner of the box does not meet the kerb line. In the absence of any special authorisation that this box is compliant with either diagram 1043 or 1044 of The Traffic Signs Regulations and General Directions 2002. Therefor this PCN is unenforceable. London Tribunal case: 2110069641, 2110138201

3. The PCN states I committed the offence at 17:26 whereas actually it must have been no later than 17:25, But this cannot be verified due to my entry not being on the CCTV.

4. The PCN states contravention code 31. However this is captured on CCTV so the code should be 31J. 


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Civil penalty charge notices (Councils, TFL and so on) / Re: TFL YBJ Code 31 Battersea bridge Rd/ Battersea Church Rd
« on: October 08, 2023, 03:03:15 pm »
Thanks for all the Advice! So for my representation.. What should I include, I will put in stating about the point of entry not being shown as I agree it is my strongest point.. should I mention about anything else, will it weaken my case or can it help TFL decide there's too many points for Adjudicator to lean to TFL favour, so they decide not to contest the appeal? Also I know that they have to give a reply to the points on the appeal and if they do not and give a generic reply that can also help cant it.

And yeah many boxes probably are not but as the tribunals are not binding and it seems like rulings don't require them to change they can just fine people to no risk to them.. and if they loose the very low percentage to appeals its nothing to the millions they make.

I have the call logs now also, I presume there's no need for them?

Thanks

Ryan

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Civil penalty charge notices (Councils, TFL and so on) / Re: TFL YBJ Code 31 Battersea bridge Rd/ Battersea Church Rd
« on: October 07, 2023, 12:30:06 am »
Yeah I will admit I didn't help myself haha, Just not even being from London and how the traffic flowed then stopped so suddenly with me not being to see it was YBJ until very late. I agree not being captured is a strong argument and since I have seen appeals allowed due to this. And Sorry If I was not clear, I do not mean the box is longer than it should be. What I am saying is that the Red Route line continues around the kerb. But under the Traffic Sign Regulations. The YBJ has to meet the kerb, as there has been multiple other Appeals allowed due to this in the Battersea area due to the Red Route. I seen someone say the TFL said they cant have the box to code because of the Red Route.


"Transport for London had argued that the reason that the YBJ at that junction was non-compliant was because of the presence of a red route at that junction which had double red lines drawn. In its letter rejecting my appeal TfL had said, "TfL has deemed it practical to not draw the yellow box marking above the double red lines or vice versa, as this will further create complication with the 2 road marks." That is from the Pepipoo page I linked in post.


2 Cases of the similar also.. I am finding it hard see how a PCN can be valid with a YBJ to my understanding not to code, with appeals given before.? Maybe I am just being stupid and missing something lol


https://londontribunals.org.uk/ords/pwslive/f?p=14952:70::INITIALISE::70:P70_CAS_REFNO,P70_PCN_REFNO,P70_RETURN_PAGE,P70_AST_CODE:908644,1007609,60,APPEAL&cs=37-qb5Dxw7dZEgkr-qogb8rp9fIAfVqygPI8zcf5_u-tL3KpPjOcJrA139UK567-wxa5c8b40zFkP1Ac5M7ZVeA


https://londontribunals.org.uk/ords/pwslive/f?p=14952:70::INITIALISE::70:P70_CAS_REFNO,P70_PCN_REFNO,P70_RETURN_PAGE,P70_AST_CODE:915500,1005905,60,APPEAL&cs=3PAioExs77pe9kgcuCW-pC7GB0wNQsIvMdWnjH6jMS4FwHhfI8NBX0cyC_JZmqVIdwPZh19I8GmMK1kOajIbPJw



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Civil penalty charge notices (Councils, TFL and so on) / Re: TFL YBJ Code 31 Battersea bridge Rd/ Battersea Church Rd
« on: October 06, 2023, 07:34:57 pm »
Hi, so my point mainly being about the YBJ not being to code I thought was a strong argument considering there has been previous appeals allowed due to the YBJ not touching the kerb. Have recent rulings not allowed appeals due to this?, why do you think that does not have any merit?


I accept the others are more subjective and I don't know if the code is incorrect as I read Code list. But same with that is appeals have been given for that also.

 
Thanks for pointing out the time I didn't even notice that. I thought like you mention and similar to having to have the correct code that all information on a PCN has to be correct.


I am still waiting for the call logs so I will ring them over this as the 28 days is coming up very soon. I hope someone like you say may hopefully know anything else, or can clarify if the box is to code so that I can maybe raise in my Appeal.


Once Again thanks to all for your time and this forum!




Edit: I have managed to look on https://www.dft.gov.uk/traffic-auths/ and I am certain that there is not an exception so at least the FOI is not needed to know this.

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Civil penalty charge notices (Councils, TFL and so on) / Re: TFL YBJ Code 31 Battersea bridge Rd/ Battersea Church Rd
« on: October 05, 2023, 09:59:33 pm »
Hi apologies for the delay I have added the YouTube link to my post.

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Civil penalty charge notices (Councils, TFL and so on) / TFL YBJ Code 31 Battersea bridge Rd/ Battersea Church Rd
« on: October 05, 2023, 04:52:59 pm »
Hi, All I have received a PCN for stopping in a YBJ. I concede I stopped in a YBJ but I have some points I wish I challenge. I have tried doing some research and if I can have some advice if I have any grounds to appeal due to this would be greatly appreciated :).




  • The YBJ to me is not to code it does not go all the way to the kerb due to it being a red route so a red line follows the curb all the way round. I have requested a FOI with TFL asking for clarification if they have been given a exception by the Transport Secretary. From asking the manager and some googling I do not think they do?. I will post the FOI in this thread when it is given.
    (FOI-2141-2324/GH 13 October deadline)
    (Appeal granted due to the same reason http://www.pepipoo.com/forums/lofiversion/...hp/t53083.html)
  • My PCN has 31 instead of 31J. I Know PCN have been quashed for this but when i have read their code list it states under camera enforcement that a J is not required for PCN so think this is no longer relevant?
    (https://www.londoncouncils.gov.uk/download/file/fid/28636)
  • My vision of the YBJ is not good. There is not great vision of the roads away from junction due to the wall and trees. Plus other street furniture. And then the actual YBJ has been placed on a hump so it his is higher than surrounding roads, unfortunately for me I have never driven there before and was doing a left turn and did not see the YBJ until it would have been unsafe for me to brake suddenly.
  • When I have spoken to TFL for requesting the CCTV the first two times the employees were evasive and denied me being able to hold the PCN until I have my evidence. It was not until a 3rd call a week later after seeing posts on here saying it will be paused whilst you wait. The 3rd call the employee was more helpful but I was insistent of it being put on Hold. I also spoken to the manager afterwards to complain about the previous calls. I requested a copy of my calls from the manager. My point for this is it seems like TFL are purposefully denying you support, as they know the less time you have to consider your options you are more likely to panic and pay the reduced fee.




I Receive my PCN on the 15th of Sep 2023 and Received the CCTV on the 4th Oct 2023. I have been told it is still on hold but they do not give me a date it will come of hold for the discount. Other than I need to have my submitted my appeal before the 28 days are up. I am sorry if this is not a lot of time for you to help me but I didn't want to post without having the CCTV and was hopeful the FOI would have been completed by now but that is not looking hopeful. 


So the CD I received only contains the CCTV of my PCN. But I was supposed to receive a copy of the calls also. The man said the case is on hold until I receive both, but I have to still appeal within the 28 days if it does not. Is this true as I think if they do no supply the correct items within the time then how is the PCN still valid?




I am the Blue Fiesta


https://youtu.be/3MpREGlLw-4




https://www.google.com/maps/@51.4788591,-0....i8192?entry=ttu




https://imgur.com/a/cdNvcil


Thanks again this forum has been so useful to me! to help me even want to attempt to appeal. I have think I have included everything you require let me know if you need anything else.






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