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Messages - satsuki726

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1
Thanks a lot!
What should I do now? Do I need to write a letter of some sort to let you represent me?

2
@Hippocrates I think the grounds you provided made sense so I suppose yes? I'm only worried if the adjudicator asks a lot about the professional stuff so I'm wondering if you are happy and can you represent me in the tribunal? Many thanks.

4
Civil penalty charge notices (Councils, TFL and so on) / satsuki726
« on: December 03, 2025, 02:18:13 pm »
It’s today 3 Dec. I will post the whole pdf later after I delete the address, etc.

5
Any advice would be appreciated.

6
Dear All,
As predicted by the professionals, Harrow rejected the appeal and answers with the following:
Quote
Notice of Rejection of Representations. Your case comes under the London Local
Authorities and Transport for London Act 2003
Penalty Charge Notice number:IY00688508
Date of contravention: 08 Oct 2025
Location: CAMROSE AVENUE
Vehicle registration: G26XXX
Thank you for writing to us.
We have carefully considered what you say but we have decided not to cancel your Penalty
Charge Notice (PCN).
We sent you a PCN because our camera evidence shows your vehicle disobeying a sign and
using a route that was only for buses, cycles and taxis. The sign is blue and round, with a white
picture of the vehicles allowed.
Please be advised that the signage at the location is on both sides of the road, and in
accordance with The Traffic Signs Regulations and General Directions 2016.
The route in question is a section of Camrose Avenue where only buses, taxis and pedal cycles
are allowed to drive through; it does not include the whole of Camrose Avenue. It is an 6'6"
restriction, and should a driver feel that their vehicle would not pass through it, they are required
to seek an alternative route.
We have noted the comments made in your representation. You state the alleged contravention
is not proved because the video does not show any alleged upright signage passed. Whilst
we have taken into consideration the mitigating circumstances described, unfortunately, they
do not warrant cancellation of the PCN. The CCTV footage clearly shows your vehicle driving
through the buses, taxis and cycles lane and the signage was correctly displayed.
The signs clearly advise motorists of the approaching width restriction in advance and the
words "BUS GATE" are painted on the carriageway itself. The signage is lit from dusk til dawn
and vehicle headlights further illuminate the signs and road markings.
There is no legislation for there to be advanced warning signs for the buses, taxis and cycles
only lane. There are directional white arrows on the road to give motorists guidance as to the
lane they should be travelling in.
It is unfortunate that you were unfamiliar with the rules that were in force. However, having
viewed the full CCTV footage, we are satisfied the driver had ample time to get into the correct
lane of traffic.
You can view CCTV evidence of your case online at https://www.harrow.gov.uk/pcn
You have these choices:
• You can pay the discount charge of £80.00. You have 14 days from the date of this letter
being served to do this.
• You can pay £160.00 if you miss the discount period. You have 28 days from the date of
this letter being served to do this.
• You can appeal to the Parking Adjudicator using the enclosed form. You have 28 days from
the date of this letter being served to do this. The Adjudicator can ask one side to pay costs
if he or she believes, for example, that they have been wholly unreasonable. However, the
Adjudicator rarely asks either side to pay costs. The Adjudicator is independent and both
sides must accept the Adjudicator's decision. If you lose your appeal, you will have to pay
the full charge rather than the discount charge (unless the Adjudicator decides otherwise).
If you do nothing
If, after 28 days, you have taken no action, we may send you a Charge Certificate increasing
the charge from £160.00 to £240.00. You will then have 14 days to pay the increased charge.
If, after the 14 days, you have not paid the increased charge, we may apply to the County
Court to recover the money - plus court costs - from you.
How to pay:
• online at www.harrow.gov.uk/pcn and click 'Pay'.
• by phone on (020) 8424 1220
Yours sincerely
Parking Representations Office
[\quote]

7
In either a civil or criminal context the obvious argument to be made is that if the Highway Authority wants to prohibit a u-turn, they should install no u-turn signs.
I think the design of the junction that I have mentioned corresponds to this idea.
https://maps.app.goo.gl/8687jnrqMkPnkJts7
The phases of the green signals are:
1. A1N and the crossing of A1S after junction
2. A1S and crossing of A1N before junction
3. Side roads both ways
4. maybe another pedestrian phase
What I would like to say is that they have put a no u turn sign only on the A1N approaching the junction, in my opinion this prevents contradiction between u turn vehicles and the crossing in phase 1.
On the A1S carriageway there's no contradicting flow to the u turn so they have not put one on.
It might still be illegal to u turn here but I don't think that the designer of the junction have been thinking of that.

A more general question being, for a split phase signal there usually (or most of the time) is a arrow signal, to indicate protected right turn, I don't think any traffic would be blocked by doing a u turn there except for simultaneous left turns or pedestrian, but surely they could just put up a no u turn sign, and otherwise how are they going to permit u turn at those junctions?

Another weird example is:
https://maps.app.goo.gl/qW2ShNZeugeBYaSu6
There's no blue arrow signs but there is a arrow signal without no u turn sign. However there is simultaneous left turn traffic so they should have banned u turn actually, or just need to yield to the left turn traffic? Also it is not really making sense if the red light is just round and I have to find out I cannot do a u turn there only after it turns into green arrow, if the law implies no u turn at arrow signals.

I will probably avoid u turning at those arrow lights in the future, just trying to find out if it is allowed and observe some discussion from the professionals.

8
Thanks, still waiting reply from council at the moment, they say it would take max. 8w

10
I suppose the real question about the law being:
What counts as the 'direction of the arrow'?

making a u turn would be towards the right hand side, so it is allowed?

11
Just a general enquiry about law on u turns. So sometimes when I'm going home from M1S I take J2 and arrive at this traffic light to either: 1. Make a u turn onto A1N, or 2. Turn right and use the side streets. It's obviously quicker to do 1. However waze never tells me to do that but google map does. So I was trying to see if it is legal on google/reddit, etc. Some say only a u turn prohibition sign would prohibit u turns and otherwise I can do one. Some referred to the law:
Quote
From Traffic Signs Manual: Chapter 6

“3.5 Green arrows 3.5.1.  A green arrow signifies that drivers may proceed only in the direction of the arrow (assuming no other green signal is shown) and continue through the junction in that direction.”

From The Traffic Signs Regulations and General Directions 2002 PART I SECTION 5 Regulation 36

“(f)save as provided in sub-paragraphs (g) and (h), the green arrow signal shall indicate that vehicular traffic may, notwithstanding any other indication given by the signals, proceed beyond the stop line only in the direction indicated by the arrow for the purpose of proceeding in that direction through the junction controlled by those signals;

(g)where more than one green arrow is affixed to light signals in accordance with regulation 34(1)(b), vehicular traffic, notwithstanding any other indication given by the signals, may proceed beyond the stop line only in the direction indicated by any one of the green arrows for the purpose of proceeding in that direction through the junction controlled by those signals; and

(h)where the green arrow signal is displayed at the same time as the green signal, vehicular traffic may proceed in the direction indicated by the green arrow in accordance with sub-paragraph (g) or in any other direction in accordance with sub-paragraph (d).”

link to the post https://www.reddit.com/r/driving/comments/kkpfij/can_i_do_a_uturn_on_green_right_arrow_lights_uk/
[\quote]
The location on google street view:
Quote
https://maps.app.goo.gl/bP9KjE2HJDZeDm6P7
[\quote]

The law seems convincing, however the other side of the junction:
Quote
https://maps.app.goo.gl/EcgieKTgdGhGo2rH9
[\quote]
has a clear u turn prohibition sign.
Also I can confirm if the right arrow is on green there's no turn allowed from the side roads, i.e. no contradicting flow of traffic to a u turn.
So I wonder why. Advance appreciations for any answers.

12
Seems like the management company has been ignoring my emails, I have send them a complaint 21 Oct, maybe I did the maths wrong but I think it is soon day 14 as @b789 mentioned in the email.

What should I do next? Should I report to ombudsman, etc?
Thanks for any help.

13
Great! That explains everything I was concerning about! Thank you so much. I will submit the appeal to IAS then see what happens next.

I suppose I will email them after I can actually determine the dates that I will leave the country next year?

But anyways, did not realise I could inform them that an overseas address could be used.

14
I have no idea about where I would be in summer next year but I'm definitely returning to the UK after that so I cannot just ignore those tickets... Also I am unsure about whether anyone could check my mail, etc. I could have my mails redirected for £100, but that would be too much for £1xx PCN.

So I might see what management of my estate replies and see if I still appeal with IAS, to be honest, I wonder if there's a way to just speed up the whole process and get them to sue me? Or, can I sue them?

I know this might be a bit weird but I have to consider my situations apart from the legally positive position I am on, which I understand fully. So I'm just thinking to get them skip the useless debt collection parts and get on with the case.

Great appreciations for the help provided, without you I couldn't get anywhere!


15
If that’s the case, is it possible that every time if I go abroad for a long time I put my friends address as a correspondence address and informed them and asked them to send all letters to that address? If so, I will probably be able to fight with them until the end.

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