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Messages - Fr3ddi3

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Speeding and other criminal offences / Re: 2 x NIP in 49 seconds - A21 John Cross Sussex
« on: June 01, 2024, 11:20:35 pm »
Quote from: Fr3ddi3 on June 01, 2024, 04:11:33 pm
The driver has received 2 x conditional offer fixed penalties of £100 and 3 points each.

His mindset is to pay the first one and let the second one go to court (I disagree with him, I think he should pay both and move on).

He will be going back to the site in the week so will check road signs, but his argument seems to be that there was probably just one 30mph sign that he passed (and missed) for both offences. It is one error from him that has been fined twice and he thinks that is unreasonable. I personally know that section of road and it is an unusual one in that 30mph seems a strange limit for that section and if you don't see the sign, I can understand that you wouldn't normally expect the speed limit to be 30mph.(I figure that last sentance is probably irrelevent to the case, but thought I would share it anyway)

We have queried with the police the exact location of the cameras because the Site ID listed on the photograph does not show up on the map of camera locations. (and he genuinely does not know where the speed gun was located - the 30mph zone continues both sides of the roundabout - we suspect it was on the north side).

I've just checked streetview for speed limit signs - there are at least 3 heading south towards the roundabout (final one is only on the opposite side of the road) and after going round the roundabout, there is one shortly after the streetlights end. Doesn't seem to me his argument can hold up (he might see that next week when he goes back to the site himself)

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Speeding and other criminal offences / Re: 2 x NIP in 49 seconds - A21 John Cross Sussex
« on: June 01, 2024, 11:14:07 pm »
Quote from: NewJudge on June 01, 2024, 10:16:14 pm
Quote
I personally know that section of road and it is an unusual one in that 30mph seems a strange limit for that section and if you don't see the sign, I can understand that you wouldn't normally expect the speed limit to be 30mph

Does the location have a system of street lighting?

Looking at Streetview, there is street lighting around the roundabout (and 2 streetlights on the approach to the roundabout), but probably no streetlighting where the speed camera was (we don't currently know the exact location)

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Speeding and other criminal offences / Re: 2 x NIP in 49 seconds - A21 John Cross Sussex
« on: June 01, 2024, 04:11:33 pm »
The driver has received 2 x conditional offer fixed penalties of £100 and 3 points each.

His mindset is to pay the first one and let the second one go to court (I disagree with him, I think he should pay both and move on).

He will be going back to the site in the week so will check road signs, but his argument seems to be that there was probably just one 30mph sign that he passed (and missed) for both offences. It is one error from him that has been fined twice and he thinks that is unreasonable. I personally know that section of road and it is an unusual one in that 30mph seems a strange limit for that section and if you don't see the sign, I can understand that you wouldn't normally expect the speed limit to be 30mph.(I figure that last sentance is probably irrelevent to the case, but thought I would share it anyway)

We have queried with the police the exact location of the cameras because the Site ID listed on the photograph does not show up on the map of camera locations. (and he genuinely does not know where the speed gun was located - the 30mph zone continues both sides of the roundabout - we suspect it was on the north side).

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Speeding and other criminal offences / Re: 2 x NIP in 49 seconds - A21 John Cross Sussex
« on: May 21, 2024, 07:35:31 pm »
Quote from: NewJudge on May 21, 2024, 12:43:10 pm
Quote
I confess I don't really understand the legal quotes above or what it means for the driver and what his best course of action will be when he receives a response (I guess it partially depends on what response he receives)

It means that where a driver is convicted of two or more offences that occurred “on the same occasion”, although he may be fined for each of them and also have his driving record endorsed with each of them, he should only be given one lot of penalty points (for the most serious).

The interpretation of “on the same occasion” is crucial in your friend’s case. If, say, you were stopped for speeding and you also had no insurance, it is clear that you committed those two offences on the same occasion and as a result you would only receive points for the no insurance offence. “On the same occasion” is not defined. However, southpaw seems quite confident that your friend’s circumstances are covered by that phrase. I’m not aware of any case law which addresses that issue (which southpaw may be aware of) but I’m not so sure your friend’s circumstances stretch to be seen as “on the same occasion”. If he was detected speeding an hour later I would argue that does not amount to being “on the same occasion.” So how long does an “occasion” last? Only a court can answer that.

Now that the police have stated that they do not consider this to be a single offence it is likely that they will offer your friend a fixed penalty (£100 and three points) for each. If he allows both matters to go to court to argue that they took place on the same occasion he may be successful and walk away with only three points. But if he is, it will cost him a whole lot more money than the fixed penalties. The total cost (fine, prosecution costs and "Victim Surcharge") for just one of the two will almost certainly be at least three times the cost of one fixed penalty and possibly much more, depending on his income. He will still also have a conviction and an endorsement on his record for the second offence which will have to be declared even though it did not attract penalty points.

From that, sounds like his best option is probably to accept both Fixed Penalties and avoid court, even though it sounds like it could reasonably be argued both offences were on the same occasion.

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Speeding and other criminal offences / Re: 2 x NIP in 49 seconds - A21 John Cross Sussex
« on: May 21, 2024, 08:09:13 am »
Email response this morning from Sussex police.

"Thank you for your e-mail.

If you have been able to view the photographic evidence, it will show that your vehicle is showing going different directions.

At 16:31:09 your vehicle is shown from the front.
At 16:31:58, your vehicle is shown from the behind

Therefore, this would be classed as two offences, therefore we cannot treat this as a single offence.

Please return the Notice Of Intended Prosecution to our office, this can be by e-mail at the above e-mail address or by post."

I confess I don't really understand the legal quotes above or what it means for the driver and what his best course of action will be when he receives a response (I guess it partially depends on what response he receives)

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Speeding and other criminal offences / Re: 2 x NIP in 49 seconds - A21 John Cross Sussex
« on: May 19, 2024, 12:42:28 pm »
Quote from: ManxTom on May 19, 2024, 12:08:26 pm
Quote from: Fr3ddi3 on May 19, 2024, 11:24:16 am
Quote from: NewJudge on May 19, 2024, 10:54:06 am
Quote
We have 2 legitimately issued NIP is 49 seconds that both need to be accepted and dealt with properly?

It isn't a question of "accepting" anything as there is nothing to accept. Both of the accompanying "Requests for Driver's Details" must be responded to, naming the driver. The driver could ask the police to consider the two as a single offence but, if they really did turn round, I doubt very much they will do that.

A course should be offered for the 37mph offence and a fixed penalty (£100 and 3 points) for the other.

I have completed both NIP and posted them. I have also requested that they be considered as a single offence.



Are you able to ask for the two allegations to be treated as one if you weren't the driver and weren't there?  Isn't that down to the driver to do?

As a no doubt irrelevant aside the "Explanation of photographic evidence" in the two photos is confusing.  The second line of the explanations refers to "N/R - New recording followed by the film frame number" but that isn't what is shown on the photo.

If they don't need to give an explanation why give one that is confusing...

When I say "I" did it, the forms were completed by the keeper, with my guidance. He wrote on the form and he signed it.
For the request for it to be completed as a single offence, I wrote the email, then read it out to the keeper for his approval, before sending it from the keepers email address.

Yes, like you, I couldn't understand the reference to New Recording, which is not what was shown in the photos.

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Speeding and other criminal offences / Re: 2 x NIP in 49 seconds - A21 John Cross Sussex
« on: May 19, 2024, 11:24:16 am »
Quote from: NewJudge on May 19, 2024, 10:54:06 am
Quote
We have 2 legitimately issued NIP is 49 seconds that both need to be accepted and dealt with properly?

It isn't a question of "accepting" anything as there is nothing to accept. Both of the accompanying "Requests for Driver's Details" must be responded to, naming the driver. The driver could ask the police to consider the two as a single offence but, if they really did turn round, I doubt very much they will do that.

A course should be offered for the 37mph offence and a fixed penalty (£100 and 3 points) for the other.

I have completed both NIP and posted them. I have also requested that they be considered as a single offence.

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Speeding and other criminal offences / Re: 2 x NIP in 49 seconds - A21 John Cross Sussex
« on: May 19, 2024, 08:55:47 am »
The driver remains adament that they did not go round the roundabout and return the way they came.

However the passenger has a clearer memory of the journey and says that they travelled south down the A21 to the roundabout, but their exit was closed, so they went round the roundabout and returned north down the A21.

It seems clear to me that the driver is mistaken.

Where do we stand, assuming the passenger is correct and the driver is incorrect? We have 2 legitimately issued NIP is 49 seconds that both need to be accepted and dealt with properly?

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Speeding and other criminal offences / Re: 2 x NIP in 49 seconds - A21 John Cross Sussex
« on: May 18, 2024, 05:09:02 pm »
Quote from: Fr3ddi3 on May 18, 2024, 04:52:01 pm
The driver was travelling southbound and did not travel back on themselves.

Actually, that might not be accurate.

For clarity, I am neither the registered keeper, nor the driver, but posting on their behalf.

The driver was adament that there was no way he travelled back on himself around the roundabout. I added the part of travelling southbound, thinking that's was the direction, but knowing where he was travelling from and where he was travelling to, it makes sense that he was on the A21, but not that he was as far south as John Cross. I need to ask the driver more questions, but unfortunately he isn't available for the next few hours.

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Speeding and other criminal offences / Re: 2 x NIP in 49 seconds - A21 John Cross Sussex
« on: May 18, 2024, 04:52:01 pm »
The driver was travelling southbound and did not travel back on themselves.

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Speeding and other criminal offences / 2 x NIP in 49 seconds - A21 John Cross Sussex
« on: May 18, 2024, 03:54:49 pm »
I have received a NIP for the alleged offence of travelling at 37mph in a 30mph zone at 16:31 and 9 seconds on 6th May 2024. The photograph for this shows the vehcile travelling towards the camera.
I have received a further NIP for the alleged offence of travelling at 45mph in a 30 mph zone at 16:31 and 58 seconds on 6th May 2024. The photograph for this shows the vehicle travelling away from the camera.

The location was on the A21 at John Cross (just north of Hastings). We can not identify the exact location. (It was a mobile camera, not fixed). The online NIP refers to this website for identifying the location of the Camera. https://ssrp.shinyapps.io/dataportal/ I can see Site ID 1158 in John Cross, but no sign of Site 686 referenced in this case.

I understand that it should be a single offence, so long as the driver didn't reduce speed below 30mph. The driver doesn't have any reason to believe that this is the case, and no evidence has been offered to suggest that this is the case.

However some quick maths shows something appears amiss.
Photo 1 was taken at a distance of 94.6 metres. Photo 2 was taken at a distance of 91.0 metres. Add on 5 metres (estimate) for the length of the vehicle and a total of 190.6 metres was travelled in 49 seconds. This converts to an average speed (if my maths is right) of under 9mph. (Different cameras with unsyncronised times?)

My layman thoughts are for the driver to deal with and pay the 37mph (Band A) offence as fast as possible, and for the 45mph (Band B) offence to be delayed and then appealed as settled when the 37mph offence was dealt with and the driver can't be reprosecuted for the same crime. However all feedback welcomed.

For full disclosure, the driver has no penalty points on their licence currently, however has already completed a speed awareness course within the last 3 years.

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Civil penalty charge notices (Councils, TFL and so on) / Re: Wealden Council - Code 10 Parking in a Disabled Bay without Blue Badge - Jarvis Brook Car Park TN6 2EG
« on: September 26, 2023, 11:53:32 pm »
Thank you everyone. I have submitted an appeal, along the lines you have suggested.

During the appeal (there was a form to be completed online) I noticed it specifically listed examples of appeals that would be considered and it said "Parked in ‘disabled bay’ but omitted to display Disabled Blue Badge – An appeal will be considered providing it is your first offence. A copy of your Blue Badge will be required." - so I am hopeful.

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Civil penalty charge notices (Councils, TFL and so on) / Re: Wealden Council - Code 10 Parking in a Disabled Bay without Blue Badge - Jarvis Brook Car Park TN6 2EG
« on: September 26, 2023, 03:09:08 pm »
Quote from: Incandescent on September 26, 2023, 02:55:25 pm
This is not a Penalty Charge Notice under the decriminalised parking laws introduced back in 1995, it is an Excess Charge Notice, and the legislation is completely different.

I would strongly suggest you submit representations based on your narrative. Don't go in all confrontational, be apologetic. Clearly you were entitled to be in that bay, but of course councils are greedy for your money. There are still a few councils that operate this old and discredited enforcement process, but it's still legal, I'm afraid. If they reject your reps, there is no appeal process, they have to prosecute you in a magistrates court. It's up to them  to do this.

Is there not a danger that I end up having to pay £60 instead of £30 if I go down that route?

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Civil penalty charge notices (Councils, TFL and so on) / Re: Wealden Council - Code 10 Parking in a Disabled Bay without Blue Badge - Jarvis Brook Car Park TN6 2EG
« on: September 26, 2023, 02:52:09 pm »
No apology needed - I came here for precisely that kind of information. Thank you.

I'll give it the rest of today and if no-one has found any reason, I'll pay it at the discounted rate

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Civil penalty charge notices (Councils, TFL and so on) / Wealden Council - Code 10 Parking in a Disabled Bay without Blue Badge - Jarvis Brook Car Park TN6 2EG
« on: September 26, 2023, 01:33:06 pm »
I received this PCN on my car today. I am disabled, have a Blue Badge and drive a Motability Car.
I had my Blue Badge with me but forgot to display it. I am guilty of the offence claimed.
Should I just pay the discounted rate or is there room to appeal for clemancy with my Blue Badge?



Location: First disabled bay visible here: https://maps.app.goo.gl/m92xxGsexxVo7BEZ7

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