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1
Can you give us the TPT Case Number please. We can then download it and keep it.

Certainly it’s Case Ref MC00642-2409

2
Reporting back with success  :D

Unfortunately I was late to accept a hearing it automatically went to an adjudicator.

I added some additional comments and pictures of the sign being incorrectly installed. Not being parallel with Oxford Street. It infact sits at a 45Deg angle which is misleading making on coming motorists believe the restriction is on Hulme street which is what it did in my case and made me hesitant to proceed hence turning down the bus restriction road.

Adjudicator's reasons,

It is the Authority’s case that the Appellant’s vehicle was in a bus lane on Oxford Road on 13 May 2024. They rely in evidence on CCTV footage, which opens with the vehicle on Oxford Road, having emerged from Charles Street. It looks as though it was intending to proceed across the junction into Hulme Street, but it then makes a late left turn and proceeds into the bus lane. The Authority also rely on a collection of photographs of the location, showing the relevant signage, which is dated 10 May 2024. I note that there is an advance warning sign on Charles Street prior to the junction and then there are two prohibition signs on Oxford Road. The one on the Charles Street side faces directly ahead and so on approaching the junction along Charles Street it would be side on and not clearly visible. The sign on the opposite side of Oxford Road is angled such that it would be visible from Charles Street, but it is on the corner at the entrance to Hulme Street.

It is the Appellant’s case that the positioning of the latter sign is misleading because it indicates that the restriction applies to Hulme Street. Having regard to the CCTV footage, I am satisfied that the Appellant was misled by the positioning of this sign. I take the view that the positioning of this sign was potentially misleading, it being so close to the entrance to Hulme Street such that it could have been interpreted as applying to Hulme Street. Accordingly, and noting that the Appellant did not see the advance warning sign it having been obscured by a delivery lorry, I am not satisfied that the prohibition signage was clear and unambiguous, and, in those circumstances, the contravention cannot, in my view, be established and I allow the appeal.

The Appellant has raised various procedural points, but there is no need for me to address these


Big thanks for everyone who input into this thread!
If anyone else gets this same fine use the incorrectly installed sign as your defence at tribunal!

3
Quote
‘I would like a Telephone Hearing / Video Hearing

That's the one to choose.

Re the Evidence Pack: as a start, there should be a list of contents and a summary of why they think the Adj. should dismiss the appeal. Post those here and the experts will advise further.

Whose witness statement is included?

Do the copies of the PCN and NtO included match the originals you hold in every particular?

Thank you for your prompt response, I will check the points you highlighted and report back.

4
From what I can see there is 20 uploaded items,
Camera certification
Witness statement
Video clip
Photos
Case status report
Pcn
Formal rep
Correspondence
Tro
Not and so on

5
Update!

I have had correspondence from the tribunal.

What happens next it says I have 2 options,

‘I would like the Adjudicator to decide my case now’

Or

‘I would like a Telephone Hearing / Video Hearing’

I recall earlier in this thread someone recommended the second option. I just want to be reassured now the time has come.

What’s the best path to take and what should I prepare?

I will upload what the authority have has uploaded as evidence but I’m guessing this is just going to be the camera footage with a statement.

Thanks a lot!

6
I have opened a case with the tribunals.
So far I have added,
Grounds of Appeal:
The authority made a procedural error
Explanation:
I am appealing based on Manchester City councils management of the enforcement process and their failure to correctly deal with my representations. The representations text does not seem to appear on their website either.

In the evidence page there is the two NOR and on the second one I have mentioned,
There was no statement made on the appeal of the pcn being paid.

I have added the original pcn to evidence and added,
The listed statutory grounds of appeal on the PCN are missing these grounds.
(g)the order which is alleged to have been contravened in relation to the vehicle concerned, except where it is an order to which Part 6 of Schedule 9 to the RTRA 1984 applies, is invalid;
(i)the enforcement notice should not have been served because—
(i)the penalty charge has already been paid in full, or
(ii)the penalty charge has been paid, reduced by the amount of any discount set in accordance with Schedule 9 to the TMA 2004, by the applicable date as specified in paragraph 1(3) of Schedule 3 to the 2022 General Regulations.

Is there anything else I should add in the comments or evidence?

Thanks

8
Received no fellow support feedback here  :'(
Going to have to pay the fine I guess…
Sorry, but we have to do other things from time to time, and give our time freely on this forum.

As I said before, I would take them to the tribunal if it were me, based on their management of the enforcement process. All their NOR tells you, you already know. It would be something of a gamble, and it's your money not mine.

I appreciate your response. Is there a guide somewhere on how to peruse the tribunal route with this that I can follow?

Thanks again

9
Received no fellow support feedback here  :'(
Going to have to pay the fine I guess…

10
@cp8759
@Incandescent

Any advice on the new PCN NOR?

Many thanks  :)

11
Well, of course paying give you closure. On the other hand, it gives them an albeit small sum of money for their incompetence. I know what I would be doing, but it's your decision.

They really want this £30 don’t they lol, this is their correspondence below I can upload the original doc if preferred?

PENALTY CHARGE NOTICE (PCN)
The Civil Enforcement of Road Traffic Contraventions (Representations and Appeals) (England) Regulations 2022
Penalty Charge Notice Number: MC33821439
Date given: 30/05/2024 at 18:58
Place given: Oxford Road (Charles Street To Brancaster Road) Vehicle registration: GL73EUO
NOTICE OF REJECTION OF REPRESENTATIONS.
Thank you for your enquiry making representations in connection with the above PCN which we received on 15 August 2024.
The vehicle was recorded by CCTV in a bus gate on Oxford Road between Charles Street and Brancaster Road (Southbound). This bus gate is in operation 6am to 9pm, 7 days a week, the only vehicles permitted to be in the restricted area are buses, taxis, bicycles, and permit holders. As you enter the bus gate there are signs and road markings to indicate the start of the bus gate and an alternative route should have been taken.
I can confirm that the signage which informs drivers that there is a bus gate in operation complies fully with all relevant legislation (The Traffic Signs Regulations and General Directions). This legislation specifies the signage we must use both at the start of the bus gate and the additional advanced warning signage which is in place on all side roads leading to the Oxford Road corridor. The lines and signs for a bus gate differ from those used to identify a bus lane, the main difference being we are unable to include any road markings (ie coloured red and/or with the legend "Bus Lane"). Bus gates will be marked with standard `no motor vehicles` signs - a red circle with a motorbike above a car inside.
The decisions on where to locate the signs are made by qualified Highways engineers who are experienced in the positioning of road signs to inform drivers to whom they apply.
There are several bus gates on Oxford Road between Hathersage Road and Portland Street. Some of the bus gates are in place in both directions and others only restrict traffic in one direction. For more information on the location of the bus gates and the restrictions in place,

please visit our website: https://www.manchester.gov.uk/info/471/parking_in_public_areas/7420/bus_gates/2
Manchester City Council, in partnership with Transport for Greater Manchester, carried out a comprehensive communication and advertising campaign to make all road users aware of these changes which came into force in October 2017. Warning notices were issued to motorists who contravened the bus gate for six weeks before the restrictions were made `live`. Both Manchester City Council and Transport for Greater Manchester continue to work with satellite navigation companies to improve the information available to update their equipment.
I have carefully considered your case and the Council does not accept that any of the statutory grounds (listed below) or other grounds for representation have been established.
On this occasion I am prepared to accept payment at the discounted charge of £30.00. You must make payment within 21 days of the date of this letter or the charge will continue to increase.
To view images or CCTV footage (where applicable) taken at the time your PCN was issued, please visit: www.manchester.gov.uk/parking
The penalty charge of £30.00 is now payable. This must be paid before the end of the period of 21 days beginning with the date of service of this Notice. See the last page of the Notice for rules relating to service*.
You can pay £60.00. You have 28 days beginning with the date of service of this Notice*.
You must now decide whether to pay the PCN or whether to appeal to an independent adjudicator.
If, after 28 days, you have taken no action, we may send you a Charge Certificate increasing the charge from £60.00 to £90.00. You will then have 14 days to pay the increased charge.
If, after the 14 days, you have not paid the increased charge, we may apply to the County Court to recover the money - plus court costs - from you.
HOW TO PAY
- Online at www.manchester.gov.uk/parking and follow the links to Pay PCN.
- By telephone credit/debit card payments only. Use our automated payment line 0161 234 5006 (24 hours, seven days a week).Please have your vehicle details and PCN number ready.
- In person at any PayPoint, you will need to take your PCN to allow the barcode to be scanned.
Appeals
If you disagree with the council’s decision you can appeal to an adjudicator at the Traffic Penalty Tribunal. The adjudicators are independent of the council and their decision is final.
The grounds for appeal are as follows:
• The alleged contravention did not occur.
• Regulation 6(1), (other proceedings pursued) applies i.e. I have received a fixed penalty notice from the Police or criminal proceedings are being pursued for the same contravention.
• I was not the owner of the vehicle in question at the time of the alleged contravention. i.e.
 
a) I was never the owner of the vehicle in question
b) I had ceased to be its owner before the detection date
c) I became its owner after the detection date. (You must supply the name and address of the person to whom the vehicle was disposed of/from whom the vehicle was acquired).
• I was the hirer of the vehicle concerned on the detection date but I am not liable to pay the penalty charge under regulation 5(2) (i.e. I did not sign a statement that I would be liable for penalty charges incurred during the currency of the hiring agreement)
• I was the registered keeper of the vehicle on the detection date but on that date: i) regulation 5(2) applies (vehicle subject to a hire agreement)
ii) regulation 5(3) applies (the vehicle was kept by a vehicle trader), and the recipient was either not a vehicle trader or was a vehicle trader but not the vehicle trader keeping the vehicle, or
• The penalty charge exceeds the amount applicable in the circumstances of the case • Grounds of procedural impropriety.
You can appeal now by visiting the tribunals website: www.trafficpenaltytribunal.gov.uk/appeal
The website explains what the adjudicator can consider and how to appeal. There is no charge for appealing and costs are not normally awarded. You will need the information below to hand when you begin your appeal.
Notice of Rejection date: 02 September 2024 PCN number(s): MC33821439
Vehicle Registration Mark: GL73EUO Online Code: 98I424
You should appeal within 28 days of this Notice of Rejection (usually 2 working days after the "Notice of Rejection" date above - our website explains this) being served. If you are unable to appeal online you may request a paper form from the Traffic Penalty Tribunal by calling 01625 44 55 99 and leaving your name, address, telephone number, vehicle registration
mark and PCN number.
Costs
The Adjudicator will not normally make an order awarding costs and expenses to either an appellant or to an enforcement authority but may do so where the Adjudicator is of the opinion that one of those parties to the appeal has acted frivolously or vexatiously or that the conduct in making, pursuing or resisting an appeal was wholly unreasonable.
No order for costs would be made without giving the affected party an opportunity of making representations against the making of the order.
Yours sincerely

12
Well, of course paying give you closure. On the other hand, it gives them an albeit small sum of money for their incompetence. I know what I would be doing, but it's your decision.

Your supportive response enticed me to push further with the following response  ;)

I submitted my representations via the online portal. In my representations, I clearly did not state that I paid the PCN and provided reasons for my challenge.

To date, I have not received any correspondence regarding the outcome of my representation, nor can I locate a record of them on the website when I check the portal.

I will have no choice but to register an appeal at TPT, in view of your failure to correctly deal with my representations.

I await your response to decide my next decision.

Regards

13
@cp8759
@Incandescent

Hi any idea with the above?

Thanks
I looked at what you say are your reps, but there seems to be noting there from yourself, it is all just a listing and description of the statutory grounds for an appeal. Something obviously wrong.

I suggest you write back and tell them that you have not paid the PCN, and never even hinted at payment in the reps. Tell them that your representations text does not seem to appear on their website.

You'd best decide now whether to pay up or take them to the Traffic Penalty Tribunal, so your letter can also say whether you have decided to pay now ans provide proof of payment, or that you will be registering an appeal at TPT, in view of their failure correctly to deal with your representations.

For the amount of time this has taken from us this far and for more time needed for traffic tribunal I think I might just let this one pass and pay the £30. Seems the more cost effective way this time, if it was a lot more I would put up bit more of a fight. Agree?

15
I have received correspondence which is attached via the link bellow, thank to your support this far.

They have taken to account from my representation that I have paid. (Which we know I haven’t)

They are now asking when was the payment made so they can investigate this further.

They request documentary evidence within 14 days or payment of £30 within the same time period.

(My representation went past the 50% payment reduction and they are still honouring it)

Appreciate your input in advance!

https://flic.kr/p/2q8tXRA

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