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Messages - mfaiz

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2
I agree, the sign is there and clear. Im struggling to think id have missed that (not saying i didnt) , unless it wasnt there in the first place, as someone else in the forum said they didnt see it either last month. Makes me think that this could be new.

3
For what its worth, I challenged this contravention and h&f cancelled it without admission. It didnt go to tribunal or court. So would definitely say appeal.

4
Got a video of the area not sure if this sign was up when it happened to me. Nonetheless , the driver did say even though, the dashcam doesnt show it properly, it was obscured by tree branches but not that much

https://limewire.com/d/bavtr#wYWZdLuLlT

@cmmanage something for you too?

5
I suppose I am trying to see if it will helpful or detrimental to my case. I had a 52m last year slightly different circumstances, but was cancelled by H&F themselves on first ask (thanks to this forum), no tribunal or rejections.

6
Thank you based on that, here are my representations for the 2 pcns based on the comments above and this older thread Old Oak Rd:

Code: [Select]
PCN HZ97617253 – 15:25 Steventon Road / Old Oak Road

I challenge the PCN on the ground that the alleged contravention did not occur because the restriction was not adequately indicated, supported by video evidence.

1. No advance warning of the restriction
There is no advance sign on the approach to the junction. The restriction only becomes apparent at the moment the manoeuvre has already been committed. A driver cannot comply with a restriction that is not indicated before reaching the decision point.
2. The sign is not visible to approaching traffic
Video evidence shows that the sign is positioned almost edge on at ninety degrees to the driver’s approach. It is not facing traffic and is not readable as a prohibitory sign until it is too late to comply. A sign that does not face the oncoming driver does not fulfil the authority’s duty under Regulation 18 to adequately convey the restriction.
3. Compliance would require an unsafe manoeuvre
By the time the sign becomes visible, it is not possible to stop or turn safely without causing danger to other road users. Enforcement cannot rely on signage that requires a sudden stop or hazardous reversing movement. The heigh of the sign combined with the already tight turn, would be unfair to expect driver to absorb all of this in a split second.
For these reasons the signage does not meet statutory requirements and the alleged contravention did not occur. I request that the PCN is cancelled.

If the authority does not agree, please provide:

the Traffic Management Order covering this location
the signage placement plan
the latest inspection and maintenance records
confirmation that the sign orientation was checked on the date in question

I will rely on my video evidence at adjudication if required.



Code: [Select]
HZ9759050A (15:27 Sawley Road Eastbound / Bloemfontein Road)
To: London Borough of Hammersmith & Fulham
Regarding: PCN HZ9759050A
Vehicle: KW75 EXK
Date of alleged contravention: 20 February 2026 at 15:27
Location: RMV Sawley Road Eastbound near junction with Bloemfontein Road
Grounds: No contravention. Signage relates to the opposite direction of travel.

I challenge this PCN on the ground that the alleged contravention did not occur. My video evidence clearly shows that the restriction signs apply only to vehicles entering Sawley Road from Bloemfontein Road.
At the material time, my vehicle was exiting Sawley Road, travelling in the opposite direction, away from the signs. The prohibitory signs face oncoming traffic entering the road. They do not face nor apply to vehicles leaving the restricted area.
A vehicle cannot contravene a restriction that is:

not facing the driver
not visible to exiting traffic
not intended to regulate motorists travelling in that direction

This is confirmed by my video, which shows the signs positioned solely for inbound traffic. No contravention can occur when a driver is travelling away from a restriction, because the Traffic Management Order and signage only regulate the inbound movement.
Since the restriction does not apply to vehicles exiting, the alleged contravention did not occur.
I request that the PCN be cancelled.
If the authority does not agree, please provide:

the Traffic Management Order including direction of travel for the restriction
the signage plan showing sign orientation
inspection records confirming sign positioning on the date in question
justification for enforcing a restriction against a movement it does not regulate

I will rely on my video evidence at adjudication if necessary.

Is this acceptable? Is it worth mentioning the 2 minute window for repeated fine from the same operator for same contravention?, something along the lines of:

Another PCN was issued two minutes earlier/later in the Wormholt Neighbourhood improvement location by the same camera operator. This indicates that the overall signage layout in the area is not providing clear or timely information to motorists. A properly conveyed restriction does not result in two alleged contraventions in such a short window.

7
I have received two moving traffic PCNs for the same vehicle (VRM KW75 EXK) on 20/02/2026, issued by the London Borough of Hammersmith & Fulham.
Both alleged contraventions are for Code 52M – Failing to comply with a prohibition on motor vehicles.
The key details:

PCN 1 – 15:25 – RMV Steventon Rd Eastbound junction Old Oak Rd
PCN number: HZ97617253
Date of Notice: 03/03/2026

PCN 2 – 15:27 – RMV Sawley Rd Eastbound near junction Bloemfontein Rd
PCN number: HZ9759050A
Date of Notice: 02/03/2026

Both PCNs were issued by the same camera operator (VA143) and only two minutes apart, although at different nearby locations.

I don't recall seeing any road signs on the approach on old oak road nor on sawley road (it does have a lot of trees). The only sign i can see is 90 degrees to old oak road, meaning you'd only see it once about to turn in. However I could be mistaken I am not from the London, was visiting family who live just off Bloemfontein road. Unfortunately they didn't remember the restriction nor registered me on the ringo app.

PCNs and All Pages
PCN 1 – HZ9759050A (Sawley Rd)

Date of alleged contravention: 20/02/2026 – 15:27
Date of Notice: 02/03/2026
Location: RMV Sawley Rd Eastbound near junction Bloemfontein Rd (VA)
Full penalty: £160
Discount: £80 (14 days)
Camera: VA143


PCN 2 – HZ97617253 (Steventon Rd / Old Oak Rd)

Date of alleged contravention: 20/02/2026 – 15:25
Date of Notice: 03/03/2026
Location: RMV Steventon Rd Eastbound junction Old Oak Rd (VA)
Full penalty: £160
Discount: £80
Camera: VA143


Both videos here: https://imgpile.com/p/3FO8rQ5
Actual notices: PCN1
PCN2

Old Oak Rd → Steventon Rd Eastbound https://maps.app.goo.gl/o8zroZnqsmU2R3YS7
Sawley Rd Eastbound → Bloemfontein Rd https://maps.app.goo.gl/TzLzLgG3URMaMbhx9

8
Yes, thanks to all on the forum that contributed. It was dismissed directly, they did take a really long time, but no mention of tribunal at all.

9
Just wanted to feedback that I was successful in my representation, without tribunal.

10
Can anyone tell me how long they usually take to respond? (Lbhf)

12
Just following up to see if there's any further feedback before I submit. Would this suffice?

13
They have not provided an email, and representations can be made via post or online only.

Contravention did not occur.

IMO, your draft is unnecessarily long and introduces secondary and worse issues which do not bear upon the key point: the number, type, scope, location and method of display of the traffic signs, both regulatory and for information, at the point at which the restriction in question applies - the restriction not being accompanied by any prior warnings on approach - makes a relevant motorist's ability to see, read and act upon the regulatory sign in question impossible. The authority have therefore failed to meet their mandatory obligation under Regulation 18 (Traffic Signs) of The Local Authorities’ Traffic Orders (Procedure) (England and Wales) Regulations 1996 and thereby may not demand a penalty for the alleged contravention.

As regards s121B RTRA, since when would a failure by a council remove a traffic authority's power to demand a penalty from a motorist? And IMO it's not relevant anyway and who's to say that the GLA(not TfL) road has been (adversely) affected?

I see your points and have revised my draft:

Quote
1. Inadequate and Confusing Signage (Regulatory Breach)
There were no clear advance warning signs on the A4 prior to the Rivercourt Road junction, in breach of Regulation 18 of the Local Authorities' Traffic Orders (Procedure) (England and Wales) Regulations 1996. The absence of staged signage (e.g., at 450, 180, and 20 yards) fails to provide adequate notice. Furthermore, upon exiting the A4, drivers are immediately confronted with a dense cluster of signs—speed limits, parking rules, camera enforcement, and directional indicators—creating cognitive overload at a critical decision point. This undermines both safety and compliance, particularly for unfamiliar drivers.

2. Unsafe Road Layout and Lack of Alternatives
The current layout forces vehicles to stop within 8 metres of the junction, despite the Highway Code indicating a braking distance of 13.5 metres at 30mph. Larger vehicles may be forced to obstruct the A4 to comply. Once committed, given the distance of infringement start point is so small, there is no safe or legal way to reverse or turn around, making it impossible to avoid the restriction without breaching Highway Code Rules 200 and 201. This design contradicts the Council’s duty under Section 122 of the Road Traffic Regulation Act 1984 to ensure safe and efficient traffic flow.

3. Unreasonable Expectations on Non-Local Drivers
As an infrequent and non-local user of this route, I was unaware of any recent changes. On this occasion, a vehicle ahead appeared to be travelling in the wrong direction, adding to the confusion. My longstanding understanding of the road as one-way—reinforced by prominent "No Entry" signs—further contributed to the misinterpretation. The combination of unclear signage, road layout, and misleading cues made it unreasonable to expect safe and lawful navigation without error.

Given these substantial legal and safety concerns, I respectfully request that this PCN be cancelled. The restriction, as currently implemented, is neither lawful nor safe.

I look forward to your confirmation that this charge has been withdrawn.

14
It is asking grounds for representation, I have the following options and none of them really fit this case, what did others do:

Quote
☐ I was not the owner of the vehicle at the time.
If you sold the vehicle before the date of the contravention or bought it after the date, you must tell us the name and address of the person who bought it from or sold it to you, if you know it, and please supply whatever evidence of the sale you may have (e.g. a sales receipt).

☐ There was no contravention of an order or failure to comply with an indication on a sign.
Please explain why you think there was no contravention of a traffic order or why there was no failure to drive the vehicle in the way shown on the sign.

☐ The vehicle was being used without your consent.
If the vehicle had been stolen, please provide details of the police crime reference or insurance claim.

☐ We are a hire firm and the person hiring the vehicle had signed a statement accepting liability.
Please supply a copy of signed agreement including name and address of hirer.

☐ The penalty exceeded amount applicable in circumstances case.
If think being asked pay more than should legally pay.

15
Sorry I wasn't clear i meant point number 2:

2. Lack of Statutory Compliance with TfL Oversight
The A4 is a Transport for London (TfL) road. Under Section 121B of the Road Traffic Regulation Act 1984, H&F Council must consult TfL and obtain approval before implementing any restrictions affecting TfL-managed roads. If such consultation did not occur, or if signage was placed without TfL’s consent, the restriction is procedurally invalid. I request formal evidence that these statutory obligations were fulfilled.

I was questioning if it is worth mentioning this point as part of the appeal.


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