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Messages - ringzer

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1
I received a letter from Greenwich today.

Even when they lost the appeal, the still went down fighting! I mean they only had about 2 months to prepare some evidence...

I would have actually preferred to have had the hearing so a precedent could be set, and visible on the Tribunals website and the yellow box potentially removed.


2
Full decision:

Not sure I fully appreciate the party "neither party attended" given I was told not to attend, but otherwise happy with the outcome.

Now on to applying for costs. Given it was frivolous to move to appeal out of principle I would like to apply for costs and £50 may be the extent of what I would be awarded but that's fine. I am also considering mentioning that I will donate the award to charity - would like to hear opinions on that.


Case Details
Case reference    2250279920
Appellant    Anna George
Authority    Royal Borough of Greenwich
VRM    GL11 DYG
PCN Details
PCN    GR23371040
Contravention date    -
Contravention time    -
Contravention location    -
Penalty amount    N/A
Contravention    -
Referral date    -
Decision Date    16 Aug 2025
Adjudicator    Louise Fisher
Appeal decision    Appeal allowed
Direction    

cancel the Penalty Charge Notice.
Reasons    

    This is an appeal by Ms George (the Appellant) against a penalty charge notice (PCN) issued by the Enforcement Authority (EA), on the basis that the contravention did not occur.

    The appeal has been decided on the papers, neither party having attended the re-scheduled video hearing of which they were given notice on 12 August 2025.

    Notice of the original hearing was issued on 10 June 2025 and followed by a request from the Appellant on 5 August 2025 for a reschedule to today's date.

    It is the responsibility of the EA to demonstrate that there has been a contravention. If I am satisfied from the evidence that there may have been a contravention, then the responsibility moves to the Appellant to demonstrate that, on the balance of probabilities, it is more likely than not that one of the available grounds of appeal is satisfied.

    In the absence of the PCN, the EA has not provided any evidence to demonstrate that they have complied with their obligation to serve a PCN on the Appellant.

    I therefore find that the Appellant has no case to answer.

    It follows therefore that I allow the appeal.

    The Appellant having been successful in their appeal, there is no payment to be made.

3
I've just had multiple calls from someone at London Tribunals and given no evidence has been uploaded I was told there is no need to attend the hearing tomorrow as the appeal with be allowed.

I asked about costs and was told that I can apply in writing after the decision, which should come through on Monday.

Is this correct about applying for costs afterwards? I'm obviously pleased about the appeal being allowed but really want to force the issue with Greenwich rejecting the appeal of a clearly invalid claim.

I haven't actually uploaded any evidence other than the suggested live or two suggested earlier in this post, so will upload the letter I sent to the council

4
Yes it was mentioned here previously about asking for costs to be awarded so would be keen too understand what to ask for and how.

The yellow box is absolutely invalid and the council must know this but didn't want to allow the appeal and were hoping I would just pay

5
This is the Tribunal's position as expressed in a standing Practice Direction. As I understand it, your case comes under the 1993 regs(made under the 1991 Act):

https://www.londontribunals.gov.uk/sites/default/files/Practice%20Direction%2001-2025%20on%20behalf%20of%20ETA%2022%20May%202025%20-%20EA%20response%20to%20Notice%20of%20Appeal_0.pdf

Personally and having regard to this Direction, I don't know why the adjudicator in the quoted case had to convene a hearing when under the PD IMO this could have been dealt with administratively without bothering the appellant.

So basically there is no need to convene a hearing if the local authority hasn't served the proper evidence of a contravention within 7 days of me appealing it?

6
So are they just wasting my time and the adjudicator's time by effectively not showing up with any evidence?

7
The council should have uploaded an evidence pack at least 7 days before the hearing, and you should have access to it.

Did they?

Do yo? If so we need to be aware of anything in the evidence pack that justifies their position.

I don't see any evidence pack when I log back into London Tribunals. I see all of my details and the PCN and the only thing in the "Uploaded evidence" is my original submission taken from this forum: "Further information about the appeal: The box junction does not conform to the requirements of TSRGD schedule 9 part 11 para 6 . I will suppy more detail at a later date before any hearing."

So as far as I can tell they haven't Greenwich haven't uploaded anything



8
Confirmed hearing for this Saturday 16th August.

Please let me know which part of what I've posted I should highlight

Also, if my husband is to sit in on the call does he need to be listed as a representative?

9
Appeal has been accepted and video call scheduled for 14th August 2025. I'm 99% sure I only asked for a Saturday hearing, but they have a Thursday.

Presumably the council will now be informed of my appeal and can choose to proceed or withdraw - is this correct? And is there any hard and fast rule about when councils withdraw the PCN? Do they often withdraw close to the appeal date?

I'll leave it a few weeks but if it looks like they want to proceed I will likely have to reschedule as I'll be on holiday that week.

10
In the box asking for details write only this

The box junction does not conform to the requirements of TSRGD schedule 9 part 11 para 6 . I will suppy more detail at a later date before any hearing

Submitted appeal asking for personal video hearing.

I will report back once a hearing has been scheduled (if at all!)

Thank you very much.

11
Follow PMB's advice and register the appeal as per Reply #1.

Make sure you opt for a personal (= by telephone or video-link) hearing and not postal.

Yes I will apply for a video call appeal.

I had one final question on what to specify in the appeal details. Other than the text as per reply #1, should I attach my letter of appeal to the council now? Or can I upload it later (I believe I can)

12
Only places a box junction is allowed

Schedule 9 part 11 para 6

(6) For the purposes of this paragraph “box junction” means an area of the carriageway where the marking has been placed and which is—

(a)at a junction between two or more roads;

(b)at a gyratory system or roundabout;

(c)along a length of a two-way road (other than at a junction), the carriageway of which is not greater than 4.5 metres wide at its narrowest point; or

(d)on the length of road adjacent to the vehicular entrance to the premises of a fire, police or ambulance station; and

The annoying thing is that I included all of this in my representation to the PCN in the first place, but they ignored it. 

"- According to Section 192 of the road traffic 1988 a road has a definition of “any highway and any other road to which the public has access”
- As noted in the Location on the PCN itself, the junction is immediately outside a private business “Meantime Brewery”. As per a photo from Google Street view, this entrance is not a road, but rather the entrance to a business."

13
Video. You almost had room ahead to exit looks like.



Possibly, but still would have overhung a fraction. I guess the point is, you rightly don't expect a junction along a straight road with business entrances along it.

14
Great, thank you. I didn't realise costs could be awarded, but in this case I believe it would be justified as it is spurious for them to reject. I was pretty close to just paying the £65 and move on with my life, but the solid case (reiterated by you!) meant I decided not to pay.

Yes I will appeal to London Tribunals and will include the text you shared.

While researching the original appeal letter, I noticed on the London Tribunals search page that I couldn't find any cases in Greenwich for my location. I suspect the cases aren't registered properly as I find it surprising that have been appealed.

15
Summary:
Stopped for about 7 seconds on a yellow box on Blackwall Lane outside a brewery - so not a valid junction in my opinion

Appeal:

On the basis of the appeal below, I believed I had a good case for it to be cancelled and only found this website once they rejected my appeal.

See full letter below but appealed on the following basis:

1. Yellow box is invalid - it's on a road at the entrace to a private business.
2. Markings are faded
3. Only stopped on yellow box for 7-8 seconds

Appeal Letter




PCNs & Rejection Letter




Location:
https://maps.app.goo.gl/VJAkayGRBYxjYL4J6


Similar
I found this https://www.ftla.uk/civil-penalty-charge-notices-(councils-tfl-and-so-on)/yellow-box-junction-ilford-ley-street/ and believe my case is even more iron clad

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