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Rear of PCN (thought I'd attached already!) attached and GSV:

https://maps.app.goo.gl/9QQyeW9R41acefFB8



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Hello,

Yesterday I returned to my car to find a ticket on the window. I was parked in total for approximately 25 minutes in a residents bay in order to load my car but was observed for 5 minutes (14.44 - 14.49) and received a PCN as a result.

Details:

I run a small business that distributes leaflets and magazines to homes in Swindon. I'd received a call from one of my deliverers, Nick, that he had injured his knee and was unable to finish his delivery round so I had arranged to pop over to his house on Clifton Street around 2.30pm-ish to collect any magazines etc that they still had left to deliver so that they could be given to someone else to finish.

If I'm lucky I can often get a parking spot right outside his house, meaning I can leave the boot/doors open and I'm in and out in a jiffy. On this occasion however I could not park outside his house so had to park further up, on the opposite side of the street. For context, I had to collect a load of magazines - around 1,000 in total, plus accompanying leaflets. The magazines are quite heavy and are bundled into 50's when they arrive to my unit each month, and I'll usually carry no more than 4-5 bundles in one go. Leaflets and other materials I spend time pre-bundling myself and putting in cardboard boxes. Most deliverers collect their rounds from my unit, however those who do not drive will require a drop off and most deliverers will de-bundle and prep their materials and delivery bags at home.

I did about three runs to the car initially with the magazines that were still bundled into 50's which only took a couple of minutes, before returning to Nick's house to deal with the rest. As my car was out of sight of Nick's front door being parked further up the road, and I knew I'd be in his house dealing with the other materials for a good few minutes, I had closed the boot. The other materials had been broken down and organised by Nick for delivery, meaning all the leaflets and magazines were collated and no longer in their original bundles so it took a few minutes to sort through them, organise them and put them into cardboard boxes so that I could get them back to the car. We had a very brief chat to go over which streets still needed to be delivered to etc and that was that. I wasn't watching the clock but I imagine dealing with this took around 15 minutes or so. Once the last of the materials had been organised I did a couple more trips to the car, got in, checked my phone for a minute or so and then set off. I got about a few metres up the road before noticing there was a ticket on my windscreen. I pulled over, grabbed the ticket, read it and then checked the time on my dash and it was 2.59pm.

This is actually the second time this exact scenario has happened to me (the first being when moving house, I'd left the rental van unattended and close for a just a few minutes whilst in the middle of loading only to return to a ticket). I did not contest that first one as it seemed more hassle than the £35 was worth but if I can contest this one I'd welcome your help.

Thanks

@ManxTom

You summary a couple posts up is correct (with the exception that it was an email rather than phone call on the 28th Feb in which I learned of three other charges beyond the one I was dealing with - two of which had been "referred to court" - their words, no details).

Unfortunately I'm as stumped as everyone else as to why my SD was rejected. All I can say is that the LA seemed to take issue with me calling the magistrates on the 17th March and not the 28th Feb. When I told her I was in India she asked "do they not have internet in India?", and seemed puzzled when I said I got in contact within 21 days.

I think I would have been disqualified again. Not on any justified grounds; I simply don't think the court process is equipped at all to deal with a situation like mine and I don't think my argument would have been properly understood or considered on the day. I did briefly get to make a defence for why being disqualified would be unjust after the LA raised the issue of my facing a disqualification if the SD is accepted and as with pretty much every reaction I got from that particular LA, she looked puzzled and skeptical. Maybe I'm doing the courts a disservice - I do think I'd have had a fairer crack had it been the same bench and LA that I had in July. In that instance, the LA was very reasonable, and the lead magistrate was more involved - he addressed me several times, asked questions and actually seemed on my side. I wish I'd pressed on with my defence rather than timidly accept the original COFP. That one I did make a horlicks of! In this instance however, the magistrates never spoke a word to me other than at the end to say that I wouldn't be permitted to perform my SD.

My situation now is basically a bit crap. If I were able to actually perform an SD, I don't have any faith or confidence in the court process to actually recognise that a further disqualification would be unjust. If I do nothing, I've got big fines to pay, 6 points on my licence and MS90 codes to declare for the next few years.

It's quite striking to me that members of this and the other forum have taken vastly more time to understand the situation fully compared to the magistrates court.

I will debate whether to write a letter to the magistrates, requesting the opportunity to perform an SD again, explaining why I feel the decision to deny me that opportunity was wrong and to outline as clearly as possible why a disqualification would be unjust if the SD were permitted (I did of course do this last time around!). Or I may just call it quits - it really depends I think on what payment terms for the fines I can get. If I can make a small monthly contribution over say, 24 months, that wouldn't be the end of the world.

Any clues as to how accommodating courts/SEU's regarding fine repayments can be would be appreciated (if known).

@ManxTom & @NewJudge

Based on what I've described above, can you see any errors on my part/why I wouldn't be eligible to perform an SD? I believe I was entitled to perform an SD. I did not know about proceedings and they had occurred before I knew about them and I contacted the mags within 21 days of learning about the proceedings.

I had originally decided to just move on. But yesterday I received the two lots of £816 fines for each FtF conviction in the post (one of them has been bumped up to £1014 which I need to query) and I feel pretty strongly that I'd not been given a fair crack of the whip at the magistrates. I also cannot afford £1800.

As such I am considering whether it's worth appealing against the decision to deny me to perform an SD.

Quote

The proceedings had already taken place,....

To save me looking through the thread, were you aware of these proceedings before they took place or did you only learn about them afterwards?

Afterwards.

Just checked my licence: convicted of one of the FtF charges on 24th Jan 2023. The other one isn't displaying but I recall seeing it some months ago and as I recall the conviction was dated sometime in 2022. I learned of these on the 28th Feb 2023, after they had occured.

FINAL UPDATE - Court/SD/outcome

First thing I did on arrival at Bath magistrates was ask to speak to the prosecutor. This was granted and he immediately said he was happy to drop the s.172's and that this was normal and basically a given. He was pretty jovial and upbeat about it and seemed a decent bloke. So far, so good. I spoke to him a bit about my circumstances and he was less confident about me evading a ban but stressed this was at the magistrates discretion (which I knew obviously, but wanted to gauge the temperature). I gave him a brief written summary of the circumstances and he took it to the LA (who I was not allowed to speak with having asked).

Once in the court room, I then got quite a grilling from the LA. I was a bit confused as the prosecutor never spoke or participated, and it seemed that the LA was doubling as a prosecutor of sorts and going in quite aggressively on me for reasons I didn't really understand. Despite having the background details to hand from my written summary, and despite me explaining clearly the point at which I became aware of proceedings against me, she seemed to insist that I did in fact know about them. The facts are; I became aware of the proceedings (but not their outcome or implications) on the 28th Feb whilst abroad in India by email with the central ticket office in the midst of enquiring about a separate matter (as I've documented on the other forum). My understanding was I had 21 days in which to contact the magistrates from the moment I found out about proceedings (28th Feb), and I did so on the 17th March by phone. On that call, I was informed I'd actually been disqualified 10 days earlier (7th March). Unless I'd misunderstood something, I'm not sure what I'd done wrong here but this seemed to be a sticking point (though never explained) and the LA/prosecutor (I'm genuinely a bit confused about her role here) kept looking puzzled when I mentioned that I'd contacted the magistrates within 21 days of learning about the court cases, as though the 21 days thing was not a thing. If I'm wrong I'm wrong of course. She challenged my on why I hadn't called the magistrates on the 28th Feb. I explained I was volunteering in India. She shot back "do they not have internet in India?". Again, to my understanding I had 21 days to contact the magistrates, so wanted to get home first, try and research and get the lay of the land and then phone them. I explained this and once again it was met with contorted and skeptical facial expressions. She asked me how much of my disqualification I served ("all of it - 6 months"), she then asked if I drove during it (why??) and I told her "no". Technically that's not actually true - I had driven a few times between the disqualification coming into effect (7th March) and my learning that I was disqualified (17th March), but from the second I learned I'd been DQF'd from driving, I did not get behind the wheel of my van once (luckily I was parked in the business park where I work and it was perfectly fine to leave the car there for the time being until I'd come up with a solution for it).

We then got into a little bit about the re-totting should my SD request be accepted and 6 more points be endorsed onto licence. Here I reiterated what was in my written statement (that she had to hand), explaining how fundamentally I had 4 offences each worth 3 points, but that I'd already severed the ban given we were going to set aside the s.172 convictions and that it was only the chronology of events that saw me facing another ban. Once again the LA/prosecutor/angry lady seemed to scoff at this idea. At this point I'd lost confidence in the process completely and it seemed the person addressing me had little interest in really familiarising themselves with the details or considering what might be 'just'. I'd spent months with this hanging over me, getting advice on here (and being annoying as hell in the process!), preparing statements to aid the court and formulating in my mind what I was going to say over and over again - not to mention the worry about being disqualified again etc - but the level of care and attention coming back the other way was almost zero (with the exception of the prosecutor who was fair and kind throughout). The magistrates themselves barely spoke - don't even think I got a "good morning" and I was required to stand in a dock behind perspex panels Hannibal Lecter-style throughout (which differed from where I was placed back in July).

The magistrates and the LA then took a brief break to deliberate on whether I would be allowed to perform the SD. During the interlude I spoke briefly with the prosecutor. He talked me through what they were doing and I asked if I could withdraw at this point. He wasn't 100% sure but said I'd have to inform the magistrates when they came back in if that's what I wished to do. He also told me that they'd had a case sort of similar to mine and that the defendant was given a shortened 3-month ban having already served 6 previously. I doubt his case was exactly like mine but I was taking no chances on a ban. I was confident in my position that I should not be disqualified again and confident that my argument/reasoning was sound, but I was not at all confident that this would be recognised by the decision makers and had decided to hit the eject button.

The magistrates & LA returned and immediately informed me that I was not permitted to perform an SD (so hit the eject button before I could myself). There seemed to be some confusion as to whether I knew about the proceedings against me (as mentioned). I'd love to explain what that confusion was but I simply don't know - I found the process to be a shambles to be honest. The magistrates expressed that they felt the FtF convictions were correct (I never disputed this so didn't really understand the point being made) and informed me of my option to appeal if I disagreed with the outcome today (I do disagree, but have no desire for this to run any longer).

And that was that. I remain where I am: 6 points still on my licence, MS90 codes to declare to insurers and two lots of hefty fines coming my way for each s.172 conviction. I feel pretty aggrieved that this is what I'm left with and that it's taken so long to arrive at exactly where I was when my disqualification ended four months ago. It's also pretty galling that having contacted the magistrates regarding an SD in mid-March, that I've had to wait this long to get a chance to perform the SD only to not be allowed to do it, and to quite probably receive an additional ban even if I did through what simply seemed like a lack of proper consideration or understanding for what might be reasonable or just. I'm sure there are circumstances & cases for which the current court system functions and works pretty well. What I can say from my two appearances at Bath magistrates in the last 6 months is that it seems wholly unfit for purpose on a number of levels. I've no experiences of court to draw upon prior to the last 6 months so maybe things used to be better but I've been left very disappointed in virtually all aspects of the experience on both occasions now. It's essentially a sausage factory with minimal scope to deal with matters that require a little more care. The meat & bones of my own case could have easily been thrashed out with a brief, informal 5-minute conversation with all involved before anything began and I'm sure that's the case for a great many other cases.

Lastly would just like to say a massive thanks to everyone who contributed their knowledge and thoughts both here and the old forum - it was very much appreciated.

Don't worry - fully understand that the Legal Advisor cannot provide me with actual legal advice and understand their role is limited in terms of how they can assist me.