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Messages - olly1234

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Dear b789,
Thank you again for your great help and assistance with this matter! Will keep you posted.

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I have received an invoice from the Leasing Company for payment

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After some radio silence from the leasing company...I received the below from the "Business Customer Escalations Executive". Would appreciate thoughts on how to continue.

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Further to your email of and our subsequent communication, I have now completed my investigations into your complaint. Thank you for your patience whilst your complaint was investigated.

Your complaint

I understand you are dissatisfied as [Leasing Company] have made payment on and then invoiced you for a PCN (penalty charge notice) issued for contravention of the Railway Byelaw. You believe the PCN has not been issued by a legal authority and is an unlawful demand misrepresenting a legal authority. You have requested [Leasing Company] investigate the payment of this PCN and report the issuer for fraudulent representation.

Investigation

Thank you for taking the time to contact [Leasing Company] and make us aware of your concerns.

I have been in contact with the Vehicle Administration Team at [Leasing Company] who have confirmed with fines relating to the Railway Byelaws, these fines are prohibited from liability transfers. As the owners of the vehicle, [Leasing Company] are therefore liable for any penalty charge notices incurred against the vehicle. It is therefore in our interest to pay these fines with immediate effect to ensure they do not escalate.

Further to the information provided by the Vehicle Admin Team, I have also taken the liberty of reviewing the Railway Byelaws on the government website. Section 14 of the Byelaws details the parking restrictions. These can be viewed for yourself here: https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/railway-byelaws/railway-byelaws

The byelaws state in section 14. (3):

"no person in charge of any motor vehicle, bicycle or other conveyance shall park it on any part of the railway where charges are made for parking by an operator or an authorised person without paying the appropriate charge at the appropriate time in accordance with instructions given by an operator or an authorised person at that place"

In this circumstance, the operator and authorised person for the car park in question is APCOA. The PCN has therefore been issued under the Railway Byelaws correctly and is not fraudulent or a misrepresentation.

[Leasing Company] have therefore paid this fine, to avoid further escalation correctly. The recharge of this fine has then been invoiced to yourself correctly and in line with the terms and conditions of the agreement entered into by yourself.

In light of this information, the invoice relating to the PCN remains payable in full by yourselves.

I understand this is not the outcome you had hoped for and for this, I would like to offer my sincere apologies. I have now closed the case, if there are any further queries I can assist with, please do not hesitate to contact me on the details listed below.

If you are dissatisfied with our response, you may contact the British Vehicle Rental and Leasing Association (BVRLA) who operate a free-of-charge Alternative Dispute Resolution (ADR) service which is approved by the government.  Complaints must be referred within 12 months of the date of this letter.  For more information and to contact the BVRLA, please click here.

If the total amount payable under your agreement is less than £100,000 and if you are not satisfied with our response, you may also, as an alternative, refer your complaint to the Finance & Leasing Association (FLA) for consideration.  The FLA operate a code of conduct (the Business Finance Code) to which we adhere.  If you believe our conduct has not met the standards of this Code please contact: business.finance@fla.org.uk. Further information about the FLA’s Business Finance Code can be found here.  In exceptional circumstances, the FLA may also be able to offer access to a conciliation service.

Thank you for getting in touch and allowing me to review your concerns.

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Dear b789, thank you again for your very detailed response; very informative.

After your exceptional letter last time, I would love your help drafting a complaint letter - I'm sure you have better, more important things to do though...

The leasing company are registered by the FCA.

As much as I am up for the fight against the leasing company, especially as their response was so dismissive, for the sake of £60 is it not easier to go after APCOA? or, in your opinion, due to the fact that the leasing company have now paid this, trying to reclaim this money from APCOA is now very unlikely?

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As an update, leasing company shirking responsibility!

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I am reaching out to apologize for the inconvenience caused regarding the recent parking fine. Although we were required to pay the fine because some APCOA fines are issued at railway station car parks so are classed as a Railway Byelaw so we cannot transfer liability we have to pay and recharge. This does not prevent you from appealing the fine directly.

We understand that it’s not always the customer’s fault, as mistakes can sometimes occur on the part of the parking authority. To assist you, we have sent a third- party authorisation letter to the email which is set for your account. Additionally, I have attached a “Permission to Appeal” letter to this email to make the process easier for you. You can use this document to appeal the fine directly with the authority, either by email or post.

Once the fine is cancelled, please send us the confirmation of cancellation so we can follow up to secure a refund and reimburse the amount to your account.

Should you require any further assistance please contact us and we will be happy to help.

 

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I'm at a loss for words, b789 you are incredible, thank you very much. Would love to buy you a drink to say thank you!

Will send that on and keep you updated with any response!

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With the help of ChatGPT have drafted the following for the car leasing company. This not being my forte, is there anything you would call out?

Subject: Urgent Complaint – Unlawful Payment of Penalty Notice to APCOA
Dear [Leasing Company],
I am writing to formally raise a strong objection regarding your decision to pay a so-called "Penalty Notice" issued by APCOA. It is deeply concerning that [Leasing Company], as a responsible leasing company, has failed to recognise that APCOA has absolutely no legal authority to issue Penalty Notices for breach of railway bylaws.

To be absolutely clear: APCOA is not a statutory authority and does not possess the legal power to enforce railway bylaw penalties. Only the Train Operating Company (TOC) or the landowner, such as Network Rail, has the statutory power to issue a legitimate Penalty Notice. Furthermore, any properly issued penalty would be payable to the public purse, not to a private entity like APCOA.

The Department for Transport (DfT) made this explicitly clear in a 2018 response to POPLA, stating that they expect any minor parking breach at a railway station to be dealt with under civil contract law, not under railway bylaw 24.1, which is reserved for more serious offences. In addition, parking offences were decriminalised in 1999 with the introduction of the Road Traffic Act. This reinforces the fact that APCOA’s so-called “Penalty Notice” is not a legally enforceable fine, but rather an offered contract that no one is legally obliged to accept.

APCOA’s use of misleading and unlawful language – implying that payment is necessary to avoid criminal prosecution – is wholly deceptive and legally baseless. Any genuine bylaw offence would require a TOC to lay evidence before a magistrates’ court, where the burden of proof is beyond a reasonable doubt. APCOA, however, has no authority to issue, enforce, or prosecute any Penalty Notice. They are deliberately misrepresenting their powers to mislead the public into paying charges they are not legally obligated to pay.

By paying this invalid demand, [Leasing Company] has effectively legitimised an unlawful claim and encouraged APCOA’s deceptive practices. Furthermore, if you have made any charge to me as a result of this improper payment, I reserve the right to take legal action against [Leasing Company] for unlawfully charging me for a bogus penalty that should never have been paid in the first place.

I expect an immediate response from [Leasing Company] confirming:
1.   Why this payment was made without verifying the legitimacy of the notice.
2.   What steps you will now take to recover this unlawful payment from APCOA.
3.   Confirmation that you will refund any charges made to me, or face legal action.

This matter is one of legal principle and fairness. APCOA’s actions are misleading, unlawful, and deceptive. Your compliance with their baseless demands only emboldens them to continue such practices.

I strongly urge you to rectify this situation immediately.

I look forward to your prompt response.


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Thank you all so much for your detailed responses (which admittedly has caused significant red haze for me as well!).

Super clear on the airport PCN, will await the PCN NtH sent directly to me as opposed to the one forwarded on by the leasing company, and then use the wording below - very much appreciated.

On the fake PN:
The wording in my lease agreement is: "Except only for vehicle excise duty fees (see Clause 3), it is your responsibility to pay all parking fines, speeding fines, congestion charges and all other fines, charges, fees, duties and tolls that become payable to any authority or other organisation in respect of the use of the Vehicle, including any fines payable by us in respect of any failure by you to continuously insure the Vehicle ("Vehicle Charge"). If we receive a notice of intended prosecution or a private parking charge notice relating to the Vehicle  we will, where reasonably possible, transfer liability by providing your details to the issuing authority/relevant operator so that you can deal with the matter directly.  We will charge you an administration fee of £12 plus VAT for this service.  For all other fines, penalties, charges and notices, or if we need to do so to avoid us incurring a liability on your behalf, we will make payment without giving you prior notice, and recharge it to you."

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you can sue them for any charge they have made to you. They have been conned by the wording on the fake PN. This can be reported to the police for investigation. APCOA have absolutely no authority to issue PNs. The DfT even made this clear in a 2018 response to POPLA where they said they expect any breach of a railway bylaw for a minot parking offence to be dealt with under civil contract law and not bylaw 24.1 which is for more serious offences. Parking offences were decriminalised back in 1999 with the introduction of the Road Traffic Act.
I'm going in hard then against the leasing company to get them to reimburse me with the threat of legal action

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Confirmed that the leasing company has paid the Redhill Station PCN:

We have paid this for one of the following reasons:
- Legislation requires immediate payment by the registered keeper
- We have been instructed to pay on your behalf by your employer
- The offence has been escalated back to [Leasing Company]
- We are unable to transfer liability.

What do you need to do?
- If you accept liability no further action is required. Please do not make any further payment directly to the issuing authority.
- If you do not accept liability, please appeal directly to the authority. Instructions on how to appeal are included on the notification. To enable you to speak with the authority we have attached a Third-Party Authorisation letter. You will need to send this with your appeal.

Please note, the driver of the vehicle is responsible for appeal and as such, we are unable to do this on your behalf. 


For both PCNs, the leasing company has sent Third Party Authorisation letters to APCOA putting them in contact with the company that leases the car (the Ltd company that the Driver is a director of)

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PCNs attached.

Should also add that I believe the leasing company has already paid the PCNs

[ Guests cannot view attachments ]

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Hi All,

In the space of 4 days 2 PCNs received through our leasing company. Grouped together as both APCOA.

The car is leased from a leasing company.

First PCN - Redhill Station
The car was parked and parking paid for through the APCOA QR Code displayed, but still a PCN from APCOA has been received, through the leasing company, for "use of Private Car Park without making a valid payment".No receipt of parking/payment when parking was paid but there is a bank statement showing the payment to APCOA with date & time. Searching the APCOA receipt finder the car can't be found.

Second PCN - Heathrow T4 drop off
The car drove through the drop off zone - didn't realise they had got to the end of it before exiting, and circling back around. Second time stopped in the drop off zone for pick-up before exiting as usual. Heathrow Terminal Drop Off charge paid later that evening for one drop off (as that was all that was showing on the website). PCN received for "Use of Drop Off Zone without making a valid payment".

Any help greatly appreciated in appealing both of these.

TIA

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