Show Posts - spumphrey

Hi, The experts on the forum will want to see a full unredacted scan of the PCN so they can advise further, if you could do that and upload here then hopefully someone can advise further. Also, see my PM. Cheers

Thank you Hippocrates! 

     It's QT10352963RE18TPVPortal Thanks

@cp8759 and @John U.K. - Is it ok to provide both the PCN and Vehicle reg number? That would allow enough someone to log into the portal as me so doesn't seem secure? Or can someone PM me if they need to see anything and I'll send it on, or I can send on screengrabs or any info here? Thank you!p.s Thanks for the info on the original thread to make this new thread, quite right and your advice appreciated

Hi, I received a PCN on Tuesday from Kingston-upon-Thames for alleged parking contravention:"47j Stopped on a restricted bus stop or stand (camera enforcement)"Location: VICTORIA ROADDate of alleged Contravention: 30/01/2025 Time 17:55Date of notice 10/02/2025PCN and other pictures https://imgur.com/a/29u0kw5QT10352963RE18TPVPortalThis appears to be the same as the recent thread:https://www.ftla.uk/civil-penalty-charge-notices-(councils-tfl-and-so-on)/stopping-at-bus-stop-pcn-victoria-road-surbiton/msg38774/?topicseen#msg38774where @sbarclay19 managed to successfully appeal, with the help of @Hippocrates. (Well done!!!) outcome: https://drive.google.com/file/d/1qexr8OS0A75Tlc1XX_Oz_4UdhyYJQjLB/view - appeal allowed on 03 Feb 2025It looks like the main grounds of appeal were:- the failure to provide a certificate of approval of the device used.- that the upright sign is inadequate- (the Notice of Rejection refers to the wrong legislation)- Appellant’s Authorised Representative commented that the only evidence of signage was provided by the Appellant and the Authority has not provided any.- Appellant’s Authorised Representative provided screenshots of the Authority's portal, which show "no location details found"regarding the location of the alleged contravention (and that there are four bus stops on Victoria Road, and the Authority had not provided sufficient detail of the location in the Penalty Charge Notice (PCN).)- The Appellant told me that he stopped unexpectedly to let his wife out of the vehicle and at the time that he stopped he did not identify any signage that informed him that he could not stop.- the Appellant asked that the Authority provide the approval certificate for the device used to capture the alleged contravention. "no evidence before me of a camera approval certification in this case, and I find that the Authority was not entitled to issue a PCN."In my case, a passenger opened the door and got into the car, which took about 5 seconds, before the car continued moving. * The sign is bleached white, so the wrong colour, and is totally missing the clearway 'no stopping' symbol. * The sign is not visible when approaching by car, and when alongside it it is too high to view from the car* In the portal the evidence is also showing "No location details found" by each picture and video. * The road markings for the bus stop is severely degraded. There is no continuous thick yellow clearway line, and is missing for a large part due to the road resurfacing. * Same ambiguous location, only stating 'VICTORIA ROAD' but there are 4 bus stops on that road. * Many of the same justifications as above, apart from where the appelant refers to inadequate response (I've not submitted an appeal so far)* ChatGPT suggests:"The missing "No Stopping" symbol significantly strengthens your case because:TSRGD 2016 Compliance FailureLegally enforceable bus stop clearway signs must include the "No Stopping" symbol as per Schedule 4, Part 4 of Traffic Signs Regulations and General Directions (TSRGD) 2016.The sign at this location does not display this legally required symbol, making the restriction unclear and potentially unenforceable.Ambiguous or Misleading RestrictionWithout the "No Stopping" symbol, the sign does not comply with standard road signage regulations.The wording alone may not provide sufficient clarity to motorists, as the official "No Stopping" format requires the clearway symbol to be present.Case Precedent for Signage Issues Leading to PCN CancellationAdjudicators at London Tribunals (Traffic Adjudicators) have ruled in the past that missing mandatory signage elements invalidate restrictions, as enforcement relies on proper and legal signage.If a restriction is not properly signed, it cannot be legally enforced."Could anyone advise on the best approach for a representation/challenge please? Should I use the same key points @sbarclay19 used with reference to the precedent of successful appeal only last week (though some parts of the appeal are based on the council response, which doesn't apply to me currently). @sbarclay19 / @Hippocrates - do you have your appeal information available please?Or is the inadequate signage (white rather than yellow), missing 'no stopping symbol' on the signage, and incomplee clearway yellow line enough?PCN and other pictures https://imgur.com/a/29u0kw5Google Streeview - https://maps.app.goo.gl/hyCevpJCmcLTRr9e8Bus stop clearway info (incomplete and partially missing in my case, due to road resuracing and degraded road markings) - https://council.lancashire.gov.uk/documents/s244280/Appendix%20B.pdfClearway No stopping sign (missing in this case) - https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/know-your-traffic-signs/on-street-parking-control-signs-and-road-markings#:~:text=The%20red%20cross%20means%20no,'%20sign%20at%20bus%20stops).What the sign should look like - https://i.imgur.com/9zT6hW6.jpegThank you for any help you can provide!

That is great news - well done! @sbarclay19 and @Hippocrates I’ve actually got exactly the same, I received my PCN yesterday. Same place and reason - passenger got into the car taking about 5 or 6 seconds and then carried on. Would it be feasible to present exactly the same argument you have and with reference to the successful appeal as a precedent, as a way to challenge it? Would you mind sending me any pertinent wording or arguments you used? I take it the reduced £55 is maintained if I challenge it rapidly, so nothing to lose?I notice as well as the bleached sign which is now white rather than yellow there is no mandatory clear way ‘no stopping’ blue circle with red outline and cross, present at all. Also, the clearway thick yellow line on the road is significantly incomplete at that location due to resurfacing and the road markings are very worn. Thank you for any advice and help you can provide!