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Messages - PCN trouble

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Civil penalty charge notices (Councils, TFL and so on) / Re: Hounslow PCN
« on: February 07, 2024, 08:35:12 am »
Hounslow opted not to contest this so a successful outcome.

Thanks for all member input, and to Mr Mustard for being ready to take them on at Tribunal.

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Civil penalty charge notices (Councils, TFL and so on) / Re: Hounslow PCN
« on: January 18, 2024, 11:19:29 am »
Thanks Mr Mustard, have emailed you

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Civil penalty charge notices (Councils, TFL and so on) / Re: Hounslow PCN
« on: January 17, 2024, 09:14:16 am »
Follow up question - the date on the Notice of Rejection is 19th December so does this mean I have until tomorrow to appeal to London Tribunals (28 days after date of service)? Many thanks

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Civil penalty charge notices (Councils, TFL and so on) / Re: Hounslow PCN
« on: January 16, 2024, 03:29:06 pm »
Thank you H, very helpful. This is the Council photo of the signage: https://flic.kr/p/2psLLEs

All other Council photos are of my car parked in the bay, which I don't dispute.

Does this representation read better:

I parked in the bay and noted the contents of the traffic sign. As shown in the Council's photo, the only option to pay for parking was to ‘pay at machine across the road’. At this stage I looked for a parking machine ‘across the road’ as per the sign. My interpretation of across the road would be to mean on the other side of the same road. However, no machine is present across the road.

There was also an arrow on the sign pointing up the road and so I walked in this direction to check for a machine. I arrived at a roundabout which had 3 exits from it. I could see no machine from the roundabout and could not possibly imagine that a driver was expected to guess between 3 possible roads, especially given the considerable distance that would take a driver from the parking space. Therefore, I drew the conclusion that the machine must have either not been installed yet (the road signs looked new to my eye) or had been removed for repairs / replacing etc. Given that there was no possible way for a motorist to pay for parking as instructed by the road sign, I concluded that it was reasonable to park within the space.

Using Google maps it is possible to identify a parking machine circa 135 metres away which is the nearest to the parking bay. It is also entirely out of sight from the parking bay and a motorist would have to choose between 3 possible roundabout exits in order to find it. I believe this is entirely unreasonable and leads to the farcical possibility of as motorist being issued a ticket by the time they are able to locate the machine, pay for parking and return to their car.

Hounslow’s formal response does not dispute that it is an unreasonable machine location in relation to the parking bay. Their response to this point is that ‘cashless solutions are available’. However, this leads to the question of how a motorist is to know this and what steps should be taken to utilise the cashless solution? Certainly the sign makes no reference or indication of this, only offering the option to ‘pay at machine across the road’. If the Council does offer a cashless solution as their response indicates, then the only possible place that instructions on how to use it could be found are on the payment machine. I do not know if this is the case or not as no photo of the machine or its location has been produced by the Council. This leads to a circular argument - in order to mitigate the unreasonable location of the machine, the Council rely on the cashless solution for which the machine has to be located!

I am also of the belief that the bay is marked incorrectly resulting in the location where my vehicle was parked not being within the parking place designated by The London Borough of Hounslow (West Chiswick) (Parking Places) (No.13) Order 2009 (notwithstanding the presence of bay markings). Item 68 of schedule 4 stipulates that there is a bay on Sutton Lane North on the "south-east side, from a point 8.1 metres south of the southernmost wall of No. 22 Sutton Lane North, southwards for a distance of 6.0 metres". I refer you to the measurements shown at https://imgur.com/Z2XUnfT which illustrate the point: if one takes a point 8.1 metres south of the southernmost wall of No. 22 Sutton Lane North, one finds himself almost at the southern end of the bay, rather than at the northern end. If my car was not within a duly designated parking place, the contravention cannot have occurred in any event.

Finally, the Notice to Owner was served 102 days after the alleged offence (date of PCN 20/7/23 and NTO served on 28/10/23). Local Authorities are required to act fairly and expeditiously, and there is no good reason for the delay in this instance.

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Civil penalty charge notices (Councils, TFL and so on) / Re: Hounslow PCN
« on: January 15, 2024, 03:12:19 pm »
I am preparing to submit my appeal to the London Tribunals so could the following be checked for errors or improvements please:

1)  Alleged contravention did not occur – The closest payment machine is 135 yards away and entirely out of sight from the parking bay. This is completely unreasonable and a motorist should not be expected to hunt down a payment machine which could take a significant amount of time and leads to the possibility of being issued a ticket by the time a motorist returns to the car. The Council’s rejection letter claims that “There is a sign where you parked that explains that the bay is...for people paying to park by phone or online”. As can clearly be seen in the photos, this is plainly inaccurate and the sign only offers the option to ‘pay at machine across road’. This only leaves the motorist with the option of paying at a machine which is not ‘across road’ but instead a completely unreasonable distance away and out of sight

2)  Penalty exceeds amount applicable in the circumstances – The Notice to Owner was served 102 days after the alleged offence (date of PCN 20/7/23 and NTO served on 28/10/23). Local Authorities must act fairly and expeditiously, and there is no good reason for the delay in this instance

3) The alleged contravention did not occur - The London Borough of Hounslow (West Chiswick) (Parking Places) (No.13) Order 2009 provides at item 68 of schedule 4 that there is a bay on Sutton Lane North on the "south-east side, from a point 8.1 metres south of the southernmost wall of No. 22 Sutton Lane North, southwards for a distance of 6.0 metres".

The bay is incorrectly marked and the location where my vehicle was stationary is not within the parking place designated by the order, notwithstanding the presence of bay markings. I refer you to the measurements shown at https://imgur.com/Z2XUnfT which illustrate the point: if one takes a point 8.1 metres south of the southernmost wall of No. 22 Sutton Lane North, one finds himself almost at the southern end of the bay, rather than at the northern end. If my car was not within a duly designated parking place, the contravention cannot have occurred in any event

4) The alleged contravention did not occur - The Rejection of Representation letter dated 19th December 2023 states “I like to advise that both Pay & Display and Pay By Phone (PBP) cashless solutions are available for the convenience of the motorists parking in the Sutton Lane North Shared us bay. A cashless solution is offered which should be used as an alternative should the pay and display machine not be accessible.”

This clearly demonstrates that is the Council’s intention to offer a cashless solution and that there are circumstances where the pay and display machine might not be accessible (for example when it too far away and out of sight). However, the images show that no pay by phone option was offered on the signage which only offers ‘pay at machine across the road’. As the rejection letter confirms that pay by phone should be “available”, it can only be concluded that the signage is inadequate and insufficient


Would anyone fancy representing me by any chance as the point around the location of the bay is quite technical and I don't think I could robustly explain it to an adjucator?

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Civil penalty charge notices (Councils, TFL and so on) / Re: Hounslow PCN
« on: December 22, 2023, 08:46:32 pm »
Rejection of reps now received:

<a data-flickr-embed="true" href="https://www.flickr.com/photos/198880276@N02/53415020034/in/dateposted-public/" title="Rejection of reps 1"><img src="https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/53415020034_b8fb83ed5f_z.jpg" width="472" height="621" alt="Rejection of reps 1"/></a><script async src="//embedr.flickr.com/assets/client-code.js" charset="utf-8"></script>

<a data-flickr-embed="true" href="https://www.flickr.com/photos/198880276@N02/53415132375/in/dateposted-public/" title="Rejection of reps 2"><img src="https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/53415132375_92fb3f9bf3_z.jpg" width="480" height="640" alt="Rejection of reps 2"/></a><script async src="//embedr.flickr.com/assets/client-code.js" charset="utf-8"></script>

They mention that paying by phone was an option but there is no reference to this on the signage that I can see so how is a driver to know?

It seems to me there is strong case to put to the adjucator (and full penalty is in play so no downside in appealing?). Any opinions or comments on how best to tackle the appeal would be appreciated.

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Civil penalty charge notices (Councils, TFL and so on) / Re: Hounslow PCN
« on: November 20, 2023, 07:52:57 pm »
Thank you CP. I have made reps on the 3 points, including your exact wording and link for point 3, and will come back to let you know of the outcome / prepare for Tribunal.

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Civil penalty charge notices (Councils, TFL and so on) / Re: Hounslow PCN
« on: November 15, 2023, 09:19:19 am »
You are entirely correct, that building is 22 Sutton Lane North and so entry 68 of Schedule 4 is the entry relating to this bay.

I'm not confident I'm reading it correctly, but is it the case that if you measure a point 8.1m south of the southernmost wall then the bay runs NORTHWARDS for a distance of 6m. The Order notes the bay as running southwards so is flawed?

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Civil penalty charge notices (Councils, TFL and so on) / Re: Hounslow PCN
« on: November 10, 2023, 12:48:02 pm »
I've started a outline draft for formal reps so I appreciate any comments / amendments:

I contest the charge on the following basis:

1)   Alleged contravention did not occur – The closest payment machine is 135 yards away and entirely out of sight from the parking bay. This is completely unreasonable and a motorist should not be expected to hunt down a payment machine which could take a significant amount of time and leads to the possibility of being issued a ticket by the time a motorist returns to the car. The Council’s rejection letter claims that “There is a sign where you parked that explains that the bay is...for people paying to park by phone or online”. As can clearly be seen in the photos, this is plainly inaccurate and the sign only offers the option to ‘pay at machine across road’. This only leaves the motorist with the option of paying at a machine which is not ‘across road’ but instead a significant distance away and out of sight

2)   Penalty exceeds amount applicable in the circumstances – The Notice to Owner was served 102 days after the alleged offence (date of PCN 20/7/23 and NTO served on 28/10/23). Local Authorities must act fairly and expeditiously, and there is no good reason for the delay in this instance

3)   Alleged contravention did not occur – The parking bay in question does not appear in The London Borough of Hounslow (West Chiswick) (Parking Places) (No.13) Order 2019. All references to parking bays on Sutton Lane North on The Order are referenced by their proximity to various house numbers. The housing is on a separate stretch of Sutton Lane North and there is clearly no housing in the proximity of the parking bay where the alleged contravention took place. Therefore, the parking bay has not been correctly designated within the Management Plan and the Local Authority has no authority to enforce the parking restrictions associated with this bay

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Civil penalty charge notices (Councils, TFL and so on) / Re: Hounslow PCN
« on: November 07, 2023, 09:45:28 am »
Thank you both.

In regards to the Management Order, to me it doesn't look like there is any reference to this bay. My thought process is that it should appear under Schedule 4 (permitted hours 9am - 6pm Monday to Friday, max stay 4 hours), but the entries relating to Sutton Lane North (entries 62 - 68) all have locations adjacent to specific house numbers. There is no housing where my bay is,  with all the housing on a different stretch of Sutton Lane North. Am I interpreting this correctly?

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Civil penalty charge notices (Councils, TFL and so on) / Re: Hounslow PCN
« on: November 06, 2023, 04:23:47 pm »
Hi all,

Appreciate the help so far. I had somewhat forgotten about this but after my informal reps were rejected, I have now received the Notice to Owner: https://flic.kr/p/2pe9Mp6

I assume there is no technicality argument here (length of time for NTO to be issued?)?

I will prepare some formal reps to post here around the length of distance to the machine and lack of visibility or clear signage. Am I making any other arguments, such as lack of info on the sign on how to pay by phone or online?

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Hopefully this shows the exact parking location: https://www.google.com/maps/@51.4883337,-0.2700588,3a,90y,169.16h,84.25t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sFuj5tPcPVR-ZDJYB1SDviQ!2e0!7i16384!8i8192?entry=ttu

(There is a only a single parking bay on this stretch of road, almost at the junction with the a4).

The machine is located here: https://www.google.com/maps/@51.4890555,-0.2699549,3a,75y,336.51h,90.55t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sOs67JdTdPRYFtUEbrrA1-Q!2e0!7i16384!8i8192?entry=ttu

It is just up past the Queens Head pub.

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Second post for formatting reasons. I submitted the following appeal:

The sign says to pay at the machine across the road. I checked across the road and further up the road in the direction of the arrow (please see the attached videos) and no machine could be found and therefore no way to make payment. Therefore I believe the sign to be either misleading or inaccurate.

Please cancel the PCN on the basis that it was not possible to make payment as per the instructions on the sign.

I have received the attached response and have the following questions:

1.   The rejection references paying online or by phone which the sign clearly does not mention. Any grounds here?

2.   Is 330ft, especially when there are several directions it may go, too far for a machine? The sign says ’across the road’ – is this misleading based on the machine location?

3.   Any other grounds? Would you advise taking this to adjudication?


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Civil penalty charge notices (Councils, TFL and so on) / Hounslow PCN
« on: August 15, 2023, 09:21:48 pm »
I parked in a pay and display bay where the sign advised to 'pay at machine across the road'. I could not locate a machine across the road and took the following videos to show what could be seen. I have subsequently found out there is a machine some 330ft to the north (past the pub).

Not seeing a way to pay the charge, nor anywhere else to park, I was subsequently given the following ticket.

PCN: https://flic.kr/p/2oTBTaU
Sign: https://flic.kr/p/2oTD1rB
Video 1: https://flic.kr/p/2oTDroZ
Video 2: https://flic.kr/p/2oTD1rB

Streetview location: https://www.google.com/maps/@51.4883337,-0.2700588,3a,75y,124.51h,75.27t/data=!3m7!1e1!3m5!1sFuj5tPcPVR-ZDJYB1SDviQ!2e0!6shttps://streetviewpixels-pa.googleapis.com/v1/thumbnail?panoid=Fuj5tPcPVR-ZDJYB1SDviQ&cb_client=maps_sv.tactile.gps&w=203&h=100&yaw=54.04284&pitch=0&thumbfov=100!7i16384!8i8192?entry=ttu

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