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Messages - 3Sh3roo

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1
Private parking tickets / Re: PCN Chester Private Car Park
« on: January 05, 2026, 02:12:13 pm »
So I've not heard anything from ELMS so far, they stated that the matter was on hold until 29th November. Naturally I don't want to tempt fate or invite them to waste our time. However I want to ensure that no nasty surprises are sprung, I have been on holiday for a couple of weeks but seen no letters, emails, communication from them.

Should I just sit back and hope they've gone away?

2
Thanks for this, he was in a rush to get to hospital and assumed it was free as most of the street is free, sadly for him after doing a full days work he came back to the fine. I'll advise him pay it.

3
Thank you for the invaluable support, should I get the above appeal put through or just tell my friend to pay the £25 rather than wait and end up paying £50?

Thank you.

4
Thank you for your response, after looking at other posts, can I therefore appeal as follows:

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Dear xx

The issued PCN does not contain the required statutory information as per The Civil Enforcement of Road Traffic Contraventions (Representations and Appeals) (England) Regulations 2022 - Regulation 3(1)(c) and therefore does not confirm with rules required for a PCN to be valid.

I therefore reject the validity of this PCN and require confirmation that you have deemed it void.
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Would that be ok? Thanks in advance.

5
A friend who started work as a doctor was running late as no parking at the hospital, so he parked here but sadly did not see the sign and upon his return got the fine, please see images.

Does he have any chance if he appeals?

https://ibb.co/LDvw6xJG

https://ibb.co/cKjH37cr


Street map image as follows:  https://maps.app.goo.gl/HzLuekLqmwZeWAEt7

6
Private parking tickets / Re: PCN Chester Private Car Park
« on: November 06, 2025, 01:04:31 pm »
I got the following response from ELMS, they are just sharing the same contract of 2015 and site map (not to scale)

Quote
Good morning,

Thank you for your kind email, the contents of which we note. 

You have been previously provided with the contract, site plan, and signage for the relevant land. Please find this attached again for your reference. 

The matter remains on hold until 29 November 2025, after which date it may be issued upon without further notice.

Kind Regards
 
Emily Scriminger-Faulkner

Deputy Team Leader
 
ELMS Legal Limited

7
Private parking tickets / Re: PCN Chester Private Car Park
« on: November 04, 2025, 03:37:09 pm »
Feedback from Elms as below, they've just added the same old contract dated 7th July 2015, best to just ignore?

Quote
Good morning,
 
Thank you for your email. Please see below our responses to your points.
 
1. VAT and the £70 uplift
We have confirmed that the £70.00 fee added to the balance of £100.00 does not include VAT. It is approved by The Private Parking Sector Single Code of Practice. We are under no obligation to provide invoices to substantiate this claim, as they are not required.
 
2. Statutory Cap and Mischaracterisation
The Notice to Keeper (attached) reads in part:
Failure to make payment within 28 days of the Issue Date of this Notice will result in the full charge of 000.000 being applied plus additional costs incurred through debt recovery and/or court action. Where debt recovery action is taken, further charges may be incurred that will be added to the value of the PCN up to the value of an additional £70.00.
We maintain, therefore, that the full balance remains recoverable.
 
3. Misuse of Criminal Authorities
Elliott v Loake:
This case shows courts can draw common-sense conclusions about who was driving when the facts point that way. If the keeper does not say who was driving and gives no evidence to the contrary, the court can decide it was the keeper on the balance of probabilities. It is not about criminal rules. It is about everyday civil inference when someone stays silent on something they should know.
CPS v AJH Films:
This case confirms that someone can be held responsible when they allow another person to use their vehicle and then refuse to identify them. Even though the case involved a company, the basic point stands: if you let someone use your car and later refuse to say who it was, the court can treat you as responsible.
 
4. Standing and Authority
You have been previously provided with the contract (attached again), and confirmation that the site remains active. We note your comments that you feel this is insufficient and advise again that further commercially sensitive documentation such as renewals would be provided if our client was ordered to do so by the court.
 
5. Conduct of Litigation
I can confirm neither myself nor Angie are conducting litigation. Any court pleadings, statements of truth, or witness evidence will be signed and submitted by an authorised person.
 
The matter remains on hold until 29 November 2025, after which date it may be issued upon without further notice.
 
Kind Regards
 
Emily Scriminger-Faulkner
 
Deputy Team Leader
 
ELMS Legal Limited



8
Private parking tickets / Re: PCN Chester Private Car Park
« on: October 31, 2025, 02:05:57 pm »
Please see response as follows, is it worth pointing out the AST or should that be left till later?

Quote
Thank you for your email, the contents of which have been noted. In response to your points raised, we would advise the following:
 
1.£70 “debt recovery”
Please note that neither ourselves nor Vehicle Control Services Ltd (“our client”) are under any legal obligation to provide the documentation you have requested. The debt recovery fee has been lawfully incurred in accordance with the terms and conditions displayed on site and accepted at the time of parking. We reject your assertion that the fee constitutes “double recovery” or that it is otherwise unenforceable. The £70 charge forms part of the recoverable amount and will continue to be pursued as such.
 
2.“The Code allows £70” — not determinative and still subject to law
Whilst your comments have been noted regarding the Code, we would again affirm that the Code allows for the recovery of these costs which were outlined in the terms and conditions referenced above. We maintain that this cost is both fair and reasonable. 
 
3.Driver v Keeper
The Notice to Keeper sent by our client complies with PoFA (2012) and therefore as you have not named the driver, we are able to pursue you for the outstanding balance as the registered keeper. If you were not the driver, then please advise of their details.  As no evidence has been provided identifying another driver, it is reasonable to infer that the keeper was the driver, an inference the court may draw on the balance of probabilities. While Elliott v Loake [1982] RTR 228 was a criminal case, it supports the principle that such an inference may be made in the absence of contrary evidence. Likewise, CPS v AJH Films Ltd [2015] EWCA Crim 1068 illustrates that liability may extend to those responsible for a vehicle’s use.

We can rely on the reasonable assumption that the Keeper was the Driver. We do not have to rely on PoFA even though the NTK sent was PoFA compliant.
 
4.Standing and authority
Our client has advised that should these documents be requested by the Courts our client will provide them.
 
5.Conduct of litigation / supervision
All litigation will be conducted in line with the Legal Services Act 2007.
 
I can advise that this matter is on hold until the 29 November 2025.

If payment was made before this date, then the case would not proceed any further. We would also be able to accept this either in full or via instalments over a maximum of 10 months. If you would like to set up a payment plan please contact us to advise how much you would be looking to make payment for and which date of the month would be best for the payments to be due, then we would be able to set this up on our system which would put a hold on any legal proceedings.

If you are wanting to make a payment on the outstanding balance, please contact us on 0XXX9 4XXXX6 or alternatively, you can make payment online through our website at https://elmslegal.co.uk/payments/
Please ensure you use your unique reference number, XXXXXXXXXXX, so that we can allocate your payment to your account, otherwise the payment may not be registered and will be returned to you resulting in the balance still being outstanding.

Alternatively, if you were looking to dispute the matter further then you would be able to do so once the case has been issued. Once this has been issued the court would send you a claim pack which would allow you to file a full defence and have your case allocated to a hearing.
 
Many thanks
 
Kind Regards
 
Angie Bailey
 
ELMS Legal Limited


9
Private parking tickets / Re: PCN Chester Private Car Park
« on: October 27, 2025, 05:23:13 pm »
Please see response from ELMS as follows, do I just wait till 20th Nov?

Quote
Thank you for your patience whilst we received our clients response.


Our client maintains that the Contract is valid and that the signage on site meets BPA approval. Our client further advises that the information requested would be provided if required by the Court.
 
The £70 recovery fee applicable to this matter does not contain VAT. The statement “charges may include VAT” is correct, they may. The operative word being “may”.

Liability Cap under PoFA - We note your reference to Schedule 4, Paragraph 4(5) of the Protection of Freedoms Act 2012 (PoFA), which states that the registered keeper’s liability is limited to the amount specified in the Notice to Keeper (NtK). However, this statutory cap relates specifically to keeper liability, not to charges pursued against a driver or contractually liable party outside PoFA. The £70 is pursued as a contractual charge and/or a consequential loss resulting from non-payment, not as a PoFA recovery.

Parking Code of Practice (PPSCoP – February 2025)  - You cite the Private Parking Code of Practice (17 February 2025) as prohibiting such uplifts. Please note that this Code sets the current cap at £70.00 for Debt Recovery Fees.

Consumer Rights Act 2015 (CRA) - With respect to the CRA 2015, we maintain that the £70 charge is both transparent and proportionate in the context of the contractual arrangement. The charge is outlined in the terms and conditions communicated at the point of contract (i.e. signage), and it reflects the legitimate costs of debt recovery action. Case law has recognised the principle that such costs may be recoverable where properly incorporated into the contract.

County Court Authority - While we acknowledge that some County Court decisions have disallowed similar charges, others have upheld them depending on case-specific facts. As you will appreciate, County Court judgments are not binding precedents. We are satisfied that our position is supported by existing contractual documentation and legal principles, and we are prepared to present our case should this matter proceed further.

I can confirm that, with regard to your comments regarding conduct of litigation,  we are assisting our client with litigation, not conducting. Edmund Shoreman-Lawson (SRA number – 537827 ) is the Principle of ELMS Legal Ltd, being a Solicitor (SRA number – 537827 ) with a current practising certificate is an authorised person for this purpose.

This matter remains on hold until 20/11/2025.

Kind Regards
 
Angie Bailey
 
ELMS Legal Limited


10
Private parking tickets / Re: PCN Chester Private Car Park
« on: October 21, 2025, 03:54:35 pm »
Feedback as follows:

Quote
Good afternoon,

Thank you for your email.

I have passed this request to our client and will revert to you in due course.

Kind Regards
 
Emily Scriminger-Faulkner

Deputy Team Leader
 
ELMS Legal Limited


She hasn't addressed the last section about legally qualified people (or anything for that matter).

11
Private parking tickets / Re: PCN Chester Private Car Park
« on: October 20, 2025, 08:18:54 pm »
Thanks for this, I will send it today. The copy of the contract is in post #61, I think you've seen it already...  :)

Also, I shared the AST back in May which is the only paperwork I've signed, not that I expect anyone to remember.

12
Private parking tickets / Re: PCN Chester Private Car Park
« on: October 20, 2025, 01:42:21 pm »
Please see response from ELMS below, should I just now wait?

Quote
Good afternoon,

Thank you for your email, the contents of which we note.

I have confirmed with our client, Vehicle Control Services Limited, that the contract remains in place and has not been terminated by either party.

Please refer to clause 3.5 of the attached contract, which reads in part “which may extend to debt recovery and/or court action” and 5.2 which reads “including suing for their recovery”.

I can confirm that J. Rooney was authorised to sign this contract on behalf of Residential Management Group Ltd and so would be able to agree to the terms and conditions therein.

Your comments regarding the signage being purely prohibitive have been noted, and our client would disagree that a contact was not formed.

Your comments regarding VAT have also been noted, however our client maintains that this is not relevant to the matter at hand.

The matter remains on hold until 20 November 2025, after which it may be issued upon.

Kind Regards
 
Emily Scriminger-Faulkner

Deputy Team Leader
 
ELMS Legal Limited



13
Private parking tickets / Re: PCN Chester Private Car Park
« on: October 17, 2025, 11:47:19 pm »
Just trying to put together both posts, would the following suffice as a response, I've combined them to the best of my ability/knowledge:

Quote

Having reviewed the contract, I note it provides for automatic continuation beyond 30/08/2016 absent termination.

1. You are therefore put to strict proof that the agreement subsisted continuously to 16/04/2025 and that the contracting entity (RMG) held and still holds authority from the landowner to confer enforcement and litigation rights on VCS. Please provide copies of any renewals, addenda, or confirmations post-2016, evidence of ongoing consideration (annual signage/maintenance invoices), and the current site plan and signage audit. In the absence of such proof, your client lacks standing.
2. The document grants Vehicle Control Services Ltd only a non-exclusive licence to occupy, not proprietary rights or standing to litigate.
3. The signature is by a property manager, not the freeholder or superior landlord.
4. The signage you rely upon is purely prohibitive (“Valid Permit Holders Only”) and cannot form a contractual offer to unauthorised drivers. Any alleged contravention would, at most, constitute trespass—an action available only to the landowner.
5. The sign states “charges may include VAT”, whereas you have now confirmed that the £70 “does not contain VAT”. That inconsistency will be relied upon as evidence that no third-party cost was incurred and that the £70 uplift is an unrecoverable fabrication.

In view of the above, please confirm within seven days whether you still intend to pursue this matter despite lacking (a) subsisting landowner authority, (b) any enforceable contract, and (c) a recoverable £70 uplift. If you proceed regardless, I will invite the Court to strike out the claim and will seek costs for unreasonable conduct.


Thanks

14
Private parking tickets / Re: PCN Chester Private Car Park
« on: October 17, 2025, 01:19:01 pm »
I've not asked them anything more about the contract, I also got a response from them ref the VAT issue as follows, should I now just wait for the legal pack to come through?

----------
Good morning,

Thank you for your email, the contents of which we have noted.

I can confirm that there is no VAT added to the £70.00 fee.

You have stated that you feel the £70.00 Debt Recovery Fee is not recoverable, however the Private Parking Sector Single Code of Practice (2024) reads as follows:

“09    Escalation of costs    Where a Parking Charge becomes overdue a sum of up to £70 may be added.”

There is no requirement to provide invoices, remittances, statements or any further evidence to support the addition of this amount and therefore this is not something which we would provide. 

With regard to your previous comments, the amount of the parking charge falls within the “between £50 to £100” bracket quoted at paragraph 111 of Parking Eye -v- Beavis [2015]. It is also in keeping with the guidelines given by the ATA: - “Part 8.2.1, The Private Parking Sector Single Code of Practice version 1.1 dated 17/02/2025 states “Parking Charges must not exceed £100.”. The amount charged is set at a rate that covers the operational costs of the parking management scheme and acts as a deterrent, as was found to be appropriate in Parking Eye -v- Beavis [2015].

The hold on the above case is due to expire on 17 November 2025.

If payment of £170.00 was made before this date, then the case would not proceed any further. We would also be able to accept this either in full or via instalments over a maximum of 10 months. If you would like to set up a payment plan please contact us to advise how much you would be looking to make payment for and which date of the month would be best for the payments to be due, then we would be able to set this up on our system which would put a hold on any legal proceedings.

If you are wanting to make a payment on the outstanding balance, please contact us on 01529 406096 or alternatively, you can make payment online through our website at https://elmslegal.co.uk/payments/

Please ensure you use your unique reference number, XXXXXXXX, so that we can allocate your payment to your account, otherwise the payment may not be registered and will be returned to you resulting in the balance still being outstanding.

Alternatively, if you were looking to dispute the matter further then you would be able to do so once the case has been issued. Once this has been issued the court would send you a claim pack which would allow you to file a full defence and have your case allocated to a hearing.

Kind Regards

Emily Scriminger-Faulkner

Deputy Team Leader

ELMS Legal Limited
-------

Thanks once again for all your help & guidance.

15
Private parking tickets / Re: PCN Chester Private Car Park
« on: October 16, 2025, 06:11:06 pm »
I received the following email from ELMS, noting they have not responded to my email sent yesterday challenging the £70.

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Good morning

Further to my previous email, please find attached the contract containing a site map, and a clear copy of the sign, as requested in your email below.

Please let us know if you require any further information.

Kind Regards
 
Angie Bailey
 
ELMS Legal Limited
----------

Attachments below:

https://ibb.co/dJ4dN3yN
https://ibb.co/ZpR96TJ2
https://ibb.co/7Jnzsz6w

Is the contract out of date or am I missing something?


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