Show Posts - Alan

Hi All,I previously posted here about a bus lane contravention that happened in Jan 2024 in Reading. Having observed the footage on the Council's website, I agree with the contravention and the £115 fine. However as my V5C was not updated, the PCN letter went to the previous address where I moved from in Dec 2021. I completely agree not changing the V5C address was my mistake. Now, due to the PCN not being responded to the case was escalated and bailiffs are now involved. I found out by a chance meeting with the new residents earlier this month and I got the chance to collect old post. The current fee from the bailiff is £425 (Initial PCN £115 + £75 + £235) Based on advise from some of the members here, I responded to the Council on 10th Nov to stop enforcement as the PCN and Warrant were directed to the old address under Rule 6. Copy of my letter to the Council is attached.Today, I received a letter from the Council to my response that I've attached asking me to contact the Bailiffs and settle the debt. They have made no reference to the incorrect Warrant and my request to settle the initial PCN.Please advise what the best course of action for me would be?Thanks,Alan [ Guests cannot view attachments ]

Hi All, Just wanting to ask for any advise as its been over a week since my initial letter to the Council (confirmed receipt Weds 13th Nov) asking them to stop enforcement under Rule 6 as PCN was addressed to previous address, but have not received any response. Would it be right to contact the Council over the phone to check the status of this case?Are they obliged to respond to me?Thanks,Alan

Quote from: Enceladus on 09 Nov, 2024 16:18Please post up the latest draft of what you want to say on the TE7 Out of Time application. IE why are you late with the Witness Statement (TE9) and deserving of extra time. The merits of the original PCN are not relevant.Then scan the TE7 and TE9 forms to two PDFs and attach them to an email to the Traffic Enforcement Centre. Put Witness Statement Out of Time application PCN Nr??? in the subject line.You should get an Acknowledgement email within a couple of minutes from the TEC. That's confirming your email as received, not that the contents are process yet which might take five or six weeks.But post the draft on here before you submit, you only get one shot at it.Hi Enceladus, just wondering if you had the chance to review the draft below. Thank youTE7 form Witness reasonsI request more time as the original contravention happened on the xxxxxx and subsequently PCN was issued by the Council, thereafter. I was not a resident at the address, thereby, I did not receive any notices from the Council including the Order for Recovery or had the opportunity to respond to those. I moved from this property in xxxxxx and I accept that the new address was not updated on the V5C (although the Driver License was promptly updated). This resulted in DVLA sharing my previous address and I apologise for not keeping these details current. The request to amend the V5C has now been made. I would like to reiterate that I would have paid the original PCN fee on time had I received it to my current address. I only found out when the new residents of my previous property shared letters under my name that had the communication from the bailiffsFor the TE9 form I am assuming I will be ticking the option I did not receive the Notice to Owner / Penalty Charge NoticeOn the TE9, are the Respondant and Applicant the same person (as in the person that the PCN / bailiff's have addressed the comms to?)Finally, are there any other forms to be completed, e.g. PE3? but I would need this to be sworn before a Solicitor?To reconfirm, is the email address for TEC for submitting the completed TE7 and TE9 - tec@justice.gov.uk?Also, for visibility, I have sent off the letter to the Reading Council based on suggestions received here (quoted Rule 6 requesting them to stop enforcement having provided more context to the reasons for the delay and other terms preventing the bailiffs to enforce i.e. Regulation 3 of The Taking Control of Goods (Fees) Regulations 2014 and National Standards 2014 (Paragraphs 8, 12, and 16), Paragraph 66 of Schedule 12 for relief from the Council's enforcement ). I will update as I receive the response.

Thank you Enceladus, Pressman and HC Andersen,I have sent off the letter to the Reading Council based on all your suggestions (quoted Rule 6 requesting them to stop enforcement having provided more context to the reasons for the delay and other terms preventing the bailiffs to enforce i.e. Regulation 3 of The Taking Control of Goods (Fees) Regulations 2014 and National Standards 2014 (Paragraphs 8, 12, and 16), Paragraph 66 of Schedule 12 for relief from the Council's enforcement ). I will update as I receive the response.Here is my draft for the TE7 (Reasons for more time). Please advise if this reads correctly and happy to take your guidance if any modifications are required.TE7 form Witness reasonsI request more time as the original contravention happened on the xxxxxx and subsequently PCN was issued by the Council, thereafter. I was not a resident at the address, thereby, I did not receive any notices from the Council including the Order for Recovery or had the opportunity to respond to those. I moved from this property in xxxxxx and I accept that the new address was not updated on the V5C (although the Driver License was promptly updated). This resulted in DVLA sharing my previous address and I apologise for not keeping these details current. The request to amend the V5C has now been made. I would like to reiterate that I would have paid the original PCN fee on time had I received it to my current address. I only found out when the new residents of my previous property shared letters under my name that had the communication from the bailiffs For the TE9 form I am assuming I will be ticking the option I did not receive the Notice to Owner / Penalty Charge NoticeOn the TE9, are the Respondant and Applicant the same person (as in the person that the PCN / bailiff's have addressed the comms to?)Finally, are there any other forms to be completed, e.g. PE3? but I would need this to be sworn before a Solicitor?To reconfirm, is the email address for TEC for submitting the completed TE7 and TE9 - tec@justice.gov.uk?

Quote from: H C Andersen on 09 Nov, 2024 11:31The enforcement agents are agents of the council. All matters pertaining to their actions may be taken up with the council. Any sensible agent would ask their principal about the circumstances which gave rise to a warrant because these can vary e.g. a known person and whereabouts who's exhausted the appeals procedure but refuses to pay to someone about whom the authority know nothing, no response to any notices and, effectively, a warrant issued in default etc. IMO, the agent is under a legal duty to check that the person named in the warrant actually lives at the premises specified. If they don't, then it's reasonable to assume that a NoE would not be served albeit posted. In your case, you're not a Russian spy and have credit agreements(my reference to this was not in the context of how these might be affected by your situation, rather that your head is above the metaphorical tracing parapet and your correct address could easily be established by the bailiffs) therefore there is no reason, other than idleness, why a NoE was not served on you at your current address. (being forwarded by a third party is not service because this relies upon a legal presumption that service is effected in accordance with the Interpretation Act unless a higher standard is imposed under specific regulations - in short 2 working days after posting by first-class post when correctly addressed to the named person). Yours was not, it was addressed to a property where you do not reside.  They cannot add a sale fee because none of your goods is at the premises on the warrant(are they??) therefore there's nothing to seize or remove and auction. You must conduct matters in writing pl, even when this confirms telephone calls with named people. I don't agree with the draft because IMO it doesn't scope the current situation fully. Re PCN ********I have become aware that the council have engaged the services of CDER** to enforce a warrant of control against me in respect of a PCN issued by the council on ******. As you are aware, you did not receive any communications from me regarding this PCN because at the time it was issued I was not resident at *****. In fact I moved on ******. Consequently, none of the notices, including the Order for Recovery, was served. I accept that this was due to the council being advised by DVLA that, as registered keeper, **** was my address for these purposes and I apologise for not keeping these details current. Nonetheless, none of your notices was received and I shall be taking up this matter with the Traffic Enforcement Centre. As a consequence of you not being aware of my correct address, your agent, ****, has similarly not served any of their statutory notices. While I accept that the council are bound to use DVLA data unless notified to the contrary, the same does not apply to your agent who has already attended the wrong property despite them not receiving any response to their wrongly-addressed NoE. Had they undertaken their duties in a diligent manner they would have discovered my present address with ease. I also suspect that they have not made you aware of this issue, which means that the warrant remains defective. They are seeking to charge me £75 Compliance Fee and £235 Enforcement Fee on the basis of these failings. ..I would end with I am prepared to bring enforcement of the warrant to a conclusion by paying the Compliance Fee on receipt of a NoE addressed to me as follows:****************As regards the underlying PCN, I shall engage with the 'put of time' procedure. Others will have views. Should CDER attend your property in the meantime, check their warrant and if defective politely tell them to get this rectified. I would also copy your letter to CDER.Thank you HC Andersen for the detailed clarification and the draft you've provided, very helpful.Do I also contact the TEC and submit the TE7 now?As I posted earlier, my current concern is if the bailiffs do find out my current address and turn up at the door with a correct address Warrant (they may know of my new address from my letter to the Council and also having updated my V5C with the new address). In such a case, what recourse do I have in terms of what I do need to ask from them to ensure they are following all the necessary steps, to avoid them taking goods, forcing us to pay the fine, or worse clamp the car. For e.g. I still don't have a NoE on the new address? Should I ask for that?

Quote from: Pressman on 09 Nov, 2024 14:25Do not give CDER Group your new address or copy them in.Dear Reading CouncilRe: PCN Number [insert PCN number]I am writing concerning the above PCN, which was sent to an outdated address due to an incorrect V5C document. Under Rule 6 of the Pre-Action Conduct and Protocol, I formally request that Reading Council cease enforcement, as the warrant is defective for listing my previous address.Had I received the PCN at my current address, I would have promptly paid the £115. Please confirm in writing by 15 November 2024 that all enforcement action has been halted.Ensure that all future correspondence is directed to my current address.If I do not receive written confirmation of the cessation of enforcement under the present warrant of control, I will apply to the court for relief from sanctions in accordance with Paragraph 66 of Schedule 12 of the Tribunals Courts and Enforcement Act 2007 and will also seek recovery of my legal expenses on an indemnity basis.Moreover, CDER Group Limited is not entitled to recover any fees or charges due to the defective warrant, as outlined in Regulation 3 of The Taking Control of Goods (Fees) Regulations 2014. Barton v. Trowbridge Council [2018] EWCA Civ 432 confirms that any defect in the warrant renders associated enforcement fees irrecoverable. This also constitutes a breach of the Taking Control of Goods: National Standards 2014 (Paragraphs 8, 12, and 16), which mandate fair and compliant enforcement.Thank you for your prompt attention to this matter.Yours faithfully,Edit: Case law is  Barton v. Wright Hassall LLP [2018] UKSC 12Thanks so much, Pressman. As I have now updated my V5C online with my new address and with this letter to the Council, CDER may now be able to trace my new address. My concern right now is if CDER turn up at my current address, what recourse do I have to stop them clamping my car or asking me to pay. i.e. what should I be saying to them or equally what documentation should already be provide by them to my new address (e.g. NoE?) for them to take this action. I can show them my letter to the Council but does not mean much without Council reponding in time before they visit.Should I include my phone number in my email to the Council? Just so they can call me and we can save a couple of days via post? Any advise on this front would be welcome. Thanks

Quote from: H C Andersen on 08 Nov, 2024 21:51In practical terms they've added all they https://bailiffadviceonline.co.uk/bailiff-regulations/taking-control-of-goods-fees-regulations-2014As far as I'm aware, a 'defective' warrant of control would only prevent seizing goods AT the property, it would not prevent CDER enforcing against you via your car i.e. clamp and then demand payment to release. A defective warrant could be remedied, therefore dodging and weaving with this does nothing but buy some time. IMO, your issue is the enforcement agent's inability to contact you. Are you a Russian spy operating under cover or do you possibly have credit agreements in your name at your new address etc? CDER cannot just add their fees, in particular the £235 Enforcement fee, simply because they've been too idle to serve notices on you. But we don't know your situation, so it's difficult to assess.To date and as far as we're aware all statutory notices from the council and CDER(the Notice of Enforcement) have gone unanswered by you. IMO, your best bet is to get the £235 removed from the debt, the icing on the cake would be the £75 as well, but then this would have the effect of not penalising keepers who don't keep DVLA up to date, playing doggo until the s**t hits the fan and then using their failure to keep proper DVLA records as an excuse to avoid all enforcement fees. I'll sleep on whether this is a legal or moral perspective. Thanks HC Andersen for sharing the link and your guidance. I am not sure why CDER could not contact me at my new address inspite of the V5C not been updated (I am assuming they have the means to get my details by checking in with govt. authorities). I do have an existing credit agreement in my name at my current address but I have been told CDER's enforcement will not affect this?Yes I did miss the V5C updates, having updated everything else when I moved and is certainly a learning for me. My point is in the event of failure of updating the V5C, is there still reasonable grounds to get the £235 removed (possibly the £75) and if so, should I contact the Bailiff's for this directly or as suggested earlier use the route through the council?Finally, with the current fee of £425 including the £235 and £75, is this now likely to increase by another £110 as Sale Fee, when they visit next (albeit at the incorrect old address)? The notice for £425 was served 4th Nov so can they visit, say, next week and add the £110? I am concerned the fees could keep going up and will eventually be liable for more.

Quote from: Pressman on 08 Nov, 2024 23:02Alan, please understand that the CDER Group has no legal basis to affect your credit rating, as no contract exists between you and them. The alleged debt does not stem from a line of credit; rather, it is a statutory liability.Some argue that it is always the debtor's fault for not updating their V5 with the DVLA, but this is not accurate. Only the DVLA has the authority to handle such matters under Section 59 of the Vehicle Excise and Registration Act 1994 and Part 7 of the Criminal Procedure Rules 2020. Neither the council nor enforcement agents have the authority to claim you are at fault, as this is exclusively reserved for the DVLA in its prosecutorial capacity.If the council or bailiff asserts that enforcement is justified due to outdated DVLA records, you can apply to strike out their pleadings, as they lack any legal grounds for such a claim. Civil Procedure Rule 75.7(7) allows them to apply for a warrant specifying their current address. Enforcing at an outdated address with an invalid warrant exposes both the council and bailiff to liability.It would be best if you issued a Rule 6 notice to the Reading Council, informing them that the warrant is defective as it lists your previous address. Set a deadline for them to cease enforcement. Alternatively, you may apply to the court for a restraining order, providing evidence of the defective warrant, your current address, and CDER Group's threats to enforce at your new address. The court may issue an order under paragraph 66 of Schedule 12 of the Tribunals, Courts and Enforcement Act 2007.Based on your advise, I am proposing the below letter to the Council with a 4 day deadline from them receiving this letter (is this reasonable)?Dear Sir, Madam,This is with regards to the above PCN number. I am writing to advise that the original PCN was sent to my old address due to an outdated V5C document. Under rule 6 (Pre-action Conduct and Protocol), I’d like to invite the Reading Council to cease enforcement since the Warrant is "defective" because it lists my old address. I’d like to highlight that I would have promptly paid the £115 if properly notified to my new address. With the Warrant stating the old address, this is a defective instrument and as such I’d like to ask you to confirm in writing that enforcement has been stopped, by the latest 15th November 2024Please reply to my new address as stated above.ThanksAlso, you suggested reaching out to the Court to get relief from the Enforcement to continue. I am not sure which Court and who to write to. Is there any guidance that can be provided here?Finally, I have not yet provided the Bailiff company with my new address. Should I be doing so now?

Quote from: Pressman on 08 Nov, 2024 21:06You should contact Reading Council directly, explaining that the original PCN was sent to your old address due to an outdated V5C document. Frame this as Pre-action Conduct and Protocol under Rule 6, inviting the Reading Council to cease enforcement since the Warrant is "defective" because it lists your old address. Highlight that you would have promptly paid the £115 if properly notified, demonstrating your willingness to comply. Set a clear deadline for the Reading Council to confirm in writing that enforcement has been stopped. While they may not be obligated to reduce the charge, providing evidence of your intent to pay may encourage a favourable outcome.Is negotiating a reduced fee with CDER feasible?No, CDER is unlikely to agree to a lower fee, as they are instructed to recover the full amount now due. Negotiation attempts typically do not affect enforcement agents' fees once they are involved.Should I submit a TE9 form, even though I have no CCJ, citing that I did not receive the PCN?No, completing a TE9 form is not advisable here. Submitting the TE9 would likely result in a new warrant being issued with your updated address, which would enable CDER to continue enforcement actions against you directly. The TE9 process primarily benefits the council by allowing them to restart enforcement with correct details rather than helping you reduce the fee or contest the enforcement.Should I pay the fee now and then dispute it with the council later?No, paying the fee at this stage could be regarded as a voluntary payment, treated legally as a gift, and would likely limit your ability to recover it. Voluntary payments are challenging to reclaim, so avoid paying the £425 until you've fully explored all other options with the council.As a final measure, since the Warrant states your old address, it is considered a "defective instrument." If the bailiff continues to enforce such an instrument, you may seek relief from the court to halt the enforcement.Thanks, Pressman for the detailed response.How do I deal with the fact that the fines will continue to be imposed by CDER / bailiff's while I negotiate with Reading Council? Could CDER affect my credit history? Is there a way to stop the bailiff's from continuing to add these charges? Thank you

Quote from: Neil B on 08 Nov, 2024 20:32If that's it then not what we asked for.Also please see the 'READ THIS FIRST' stickyI have read the Sticky, unfortunately, this bailiff (CDER) letter and the screenshot of the contravention on the council website that I have also attached, are the only pieces of information I have access to.

Quote from: Neil B on 08 Nov, 2024 20:24Quote from: Alan on 08 Nov, 2024 19:03Quote from: H C Andersen on 08 Nov, 2024 18:54We lived at the old property 3 years ago and only learnt today that the V5C was not updated with my new address. You moved when? Moved in early 2022Was your property occupied after date of issue of PCN? Yes the old property was occupied by new buyers when the PCN was issued so the new buyers kindly forwarded this to me today. Do CDER know where you live now? NoDo you still have the car in question? YesThe largest component of your debt is CDER's fees, £310, so irrespective of the PCN we need to look at whether you could avoid some or all of these.Thanks for your assistance, H C AndersenWe're still waiting to see the CDER notice.Oh, I already attached it in my first post, here it is again. Thanks

Quote from: H C Andersen on 08 Nov, 2024 18:54We lived at the old property 3 years ago and only learnt today that the V5C was not updated with my new address. You moved when? Moved in early 2022Was your property occupied after date of issue of PCN? Yes the old property was occupied by new buyers when the PCN was issued so the new buyers kindly forwarded this to me today. Do CDER know where you live now? NoDo you still have the car in question? YesThe largest component of your debt is CDER's fees, £310, so irrespective of the PCN we need to look at whether you could avoid some or all of these.Thanks for your assistance, H C Andersen

Thank you Stamfordman, appreciate your guidance.Does that mean my only option is to pay the full £425? Could I still contact the council that I had not received the original PCN (or any follow up letters)? or should it be to the Traffic Enforcement Court by completing the TE9 (non-receipt of PCN)?If I do complete the TE9, am I inviting the £1,000 fee for not updating the V5C?Finally, was not clear what you meant who to Post the Letter to? And yes have updated my V5C today.Thanks in advance.

Hi all,I received a letter today forwarded from buyers of my previous property. The letter was from CDER about a £425 charge for a PCN on behalf of Reading Council, CDER's letter attached here.I called CDER as its the first I heard about this contravention (never received the original PCN). We lived at the old property 3 years ago and only learnt today that the V5C was not updated with my new address. The CDER customer service colleague gave us a reference number which when entered on Reading Council's website, I could see that this was genuine PCN and happened on the 7th Jan 2024 (10 months prior to today). The Reading Council PCN page states a fee of £115 which has increased to £425 with CDER getting involved. However when trying to pay the £115 on the council webstie, the page states I have to contact the enforcement agents as its too late.I want to understand if I have a case for not getting the initial PCN to my new address as I would have immediately paid the £115 fee. The driving license address was corrected with DVLA pretty much after we moved but not the V5C. Should I reach out to Reading Council if I have a case at all?My concern is CDER go to the courts, which they said they would do by next week, and my name will be associated to having a case against me. Or alternatively should I negotiate with CDER for a lower fee?or should I complete a TE9 (even though I have no CCJ) that I have not received the PCN?or finally, do I pay the fee and then fight my cause with the Council?Advise greatly appreciated.