3. Messages

Show Posts

This section allows you to view all posts made by this member. Note that you can only see posts made in areas you currently have access to.

Messages - brutal_deluxe

Pages: [1] 2
1
Civil penalty charge notices (Councils, TFL and so on) / Re: PCN - Herefordshire council. 5 mins grace??!
« on: November 29, 2024, 05:52:25 pm »
Quote from: cp8759 on November 27, 2024, 07:37:14 pm
@brutal_deluxe definitely wait for the notice to owner, as long as you challenge it within 14 days of the date of issue they will reoffer the discount anyway.

1/ So it says I need to wait for the penalty to revert to the full amount before challenging again as registered keeper?
2/ It also says that 'it is the responsibility of the owner to make sure a parking session is in place before leaving the car', however I do not see any of this in the terms/conditions.
3/ I don't see how this is a winner at all unless they're lying to me about the procedural impropriety bit. Can you explain in lay terms how I could win this?

Thanks again
BD

2
Civil penalty charge notices (Councils, TFL and so on) / Re: PCN - Herefordshire council. 5 mins grace??!
« on: November 27, 2024, 12:12:49 pm »
Hi Guys, so, appeal rejected it seems because...

1/ No evidence of app activity
2/ Car was left before parking session could be purchased
3/ Other payment options available
4/ Procedural impropriety only applicable on Notice to Owner

Any advice appreciated!


https://photos.app.goo.gl/XujJTpZH9KboYnhd9

3
Civil penalty charge notices (Councils, TFL and so on) / Re: PCN - Herefordshire Council council. 5 mins grace??!
« on: November 02, 2024, 03:59:46 pm »
Quote from: cp8759 on November 02, 2024, 03:56:01 pm
@brutal_deluxe here's a draft:

Dear Herefordshire Council,

I would ask for the PCN to be cancelled for the following reasons. Firstly app payment available so I tried used the app, but the internet connection was poor so the app kept failing, walking around did not result in a better signal so I eventually went back to the car to move it elsewhere.

However I am confused by the wording on the penalty charge notice because it states that I failed to display a ticket, but even if my purchase had successfully gone through I would not have had anything on display, which suggests a PCN could have been issued regardless of whether I bought a parking session or not.

Furthermore I note that regulation 3(1)(c) of The Civil Enforcement of Road Traffic Contraventions (Representations and Appeals) (England) Regulations 2022 requires the PCN to warn that if a notice to owner is served while informal representations are outstanding, the owner must make representations against and must not wait for the informal representations to be dealt with, this mandatory warning has been omitted from the penalty charge notice and that is a procedural impropriety.

It follows that the penalty charge must be cancelled in any event.

Yours faithfully,


Send this online and keep a screenshot of the confirmation page.

Thanks so much for your help with this. Will let you know of the outcome

4
Civil penalty charge notices (Councils, TFL and so on) / Re: PCN - Herefordshire council. 5 mins grace??!
« on: November 02, 2024, 11:53:32 am »
Quote from: cp8759 on November 02, 2024, 09:59:32 am
@brutal_deluxe Either go with H C Andersen's suggestion, or answer this and I'll see if we can expand on it slightly:

Quote from: cp8759 on October 30, 2024, 01:16:14 pm
@brutal_deluxe where did you eventually move the car to, and did you ever actually pay to park?

Moved to a free location further out as I had no change for the machine

5
Civil penalty charge notices (Councils, TFL and so on) / Re: PCN - Herefordshire council. 5 mins grace??!
« on: November 02, 2024, 08:35:34 am »
Quote from: H C Andersen on October 30, 2024, 02:09:56 pm
Mandatory PCN info is missing IMO...


If you can let me know re my response above that would be amazing thank you!

6
Civil penalty charge notices (Councils, TFL and so on) / Re: PCN - Herefordshire council. 5 mins grace??!
« on: November 01, 2024, 08:49:57 am »
Thanks very much, this is really helpful.

So in the first instance, I launch a soft appeal? Something like..

Dear sirs,

There does not appear to be any mandatory Regulation 9 appeals information (specifically Section 7 (a) and (b)) on the reverse of the PCN.

Section 7(b) includes section 3(1)(c) of the 2022 appeals regulations, of which the wording and meaning appear to be missing. This seems to be a procedural impropriety.

Please could you not simply respond to the above, but respond in like manner to which these representations have been made.

I also do not understand the grounds for the charge as a window ticket is optional.

I was attempting to purchase a virtual ticket via RingGo as advertised on the ticket machine but after considering the information, was not able to complete the transaction. I then promptly decided to return to move the car but a PCN had already been served.

Kind regards

BD

7
Civil penalty charge notices (Councils, TFL and so on) / Re: PCN - Herefordshire council. 5 mins grace??!
« on: October 30, 2024, 12:16:02 pm »
Quote from: John U.K. on October 30, 2024, 11:58:09 am
Quote
There is no mandatory info, just:

How to pay
How to challenge
What happens if not paid
Data protection

the headings you categorise as just is in fact the headings for the mandatory information - the 'small print' - which the law demands. Cases are frequently won because councils have made mistakes in or failed to adequately convey the required information under those headings.

Hey John, thanks for the info! I have attached a photo of the reverse, are you able to shed any light on it given what I've disclosed so far about the situation?

8
Civil penalty charge notices (Councils, TFL and so on) / Re: PCN - Herefordshire council. 5 mins grace??!
« on: October 30, 2024, 11:24:09 am »
Quote from: H C Andersen on October 30, 2024, 10:29:30 am
It's out of focus!

The mandatory info to which I refer is, if missing, virtually a stone-cold winner at adjudication, so why not make the effort to enable us to check if it's there?

There is no mandatory info, just:

How to pay
How to challenge
What happens if not paid
Data protection

9
Civil penalty charge notices (Councils, TFL and so on) / Re: PCN - Herefordshire council. 5 mins grace??!
« on: October 30, 2024, 10:12:57 am »
Hi everyone, many thanks, back and link to gsv was posted in first comment  :D



https://photos.app.goo.gl/i45DoEg5Twk9Pjvj9

10
Civil penalty charge notices (Councils, TFL and so on) / Re: PCN - Herefordshire council. 5 mins grace??!
« on: October 30, 2024, 08:59:30 am »
Quote from: stamfordman on October 30, 2024, 08:51:46 am

Thank you! Nice that it's made so easy for the average person isn't it  ::)

I'm going to formulate an appeal today and post it here before finally submitting it tomorrow. Thanks @stamfordman for being helpful!

11
Civil penalty charge notices (Councils, TFL and so on) / Re: PCN - Herefordshire council. 5 mins grace??!
« on: October 30, 2024, 05:00:58 am »
Quote from: cp8759 on October 26, 2024, 11:44:12 pm
@brutal_deluxe once you've given us the plate we can look up the photos on the council website. I'm more than happy to draft a representation for you.

Hi! Thank you! The full PCN can be seen here:

https://photos.app.goo.gl/qZd1fgnUuNCyMYkV6

Thanks so much again. I believe I have 5 days to submit an appeal for the discounted period. If you don't think you can help or access any photos on the website do let me know. I've looked but can't find a way??

Many thanks again

BD

UPDATE**

I have found the portal at

https://www.councilparking.org/herefordshire/pages/OnlineReferenceEntry.aspx?loadtype=NOTICEREVIEW   

But can't seem to view any photos without a 'Web Code' which should have been on the front of the PCN.

As I only have 5 more days then I may just appeal in my own words based on the fact there was no consideration for virtual tickets??

Sorry!

12
Civil penalty charge notices (Councils, TFL and so on) / Re: PCN - Herefordshire council. 5 mins grace??!
« on: October 26, 2024, 10:50:52 pm »
Quote from: cp8759 on October 26, 2024, 12:25:48 pm
Quote from: brutal_deluxe on October 25, 2024, 12:44:39 pm
Shame you can't turn off the upload field!
@brutal_deluxe  well if I could I would. Anyway we now have the problem that you've redacted the number plate, so we can't see what evidence the council has. As the guide (which you've supposedly read twice already) clearly explains, the number plate should not be redacted: the council knows it already and everyone can see it every time your car is on the road. Hiding it just makes it that much harder for us to help you.

The traffic order is The County of Herefordshire District Council (Hereford City Centre) Order 2017 and the relevant entry is on page 33 ("From 35.5m south of the southern kerbline of West Street southwards for 24.5m").

The obvious ground of appeal would be that if payment by phone is permitted then there would be nothing to display in any event, we have a few cases that have been won on this point and the most relevant seems to be Lydia Russo v Plymouth City Council (PL00004-2401, 12 March 2024), but I'm reluctant to draft a representation without seeing the council photos because I wouldn't' want you to make a self-incriminating admission that you were parking in a parking bay if the council can't prove that.

No worries! I prefer to err on the side of caution when it comes to disclosing any identifiable information anywhere on the internet, however since it seems to be a requirement I'll re-upload. The plate they recorded was correct.

I'll have a butchers at that previous case. I've only ever dealt with private PCN invoices so this is a whole new ballgame to me. What would you recommend re the photos?? Do I request them and would that automatically put the 50% discount on hold?

Thanks again

BD

13
Civil penalty charge notices (Councils, TFL and so on) / Re: PCN - Herefordshire council. 5 mins grace??!
« on: October 25, 2024, 05:40:09 pm »
Quote from: H C Andersen on October 25, 2024, 05:07:36 pm
The contraventions grounds are wrong because display is not required, it's optional because paying by phone is permitted.

The mandatory warning seems to be missing on the rear of the PCN:

c)that if a notice to owner is served despite the representations mentioned in sub-paragraph (b), representations against the penalty charge must be made to the enforcement authority in the form and manner and at the time specified in the notice to owner.

Thank you, now this is interesting also.

How can I present this in the form of an appeal? Where did you quote it from?

14
Civil penalty charge notices (Councils, TFL and so on) / Re: PCN - Herefordshire council. 5 mins grace??!
« on: October 25, 2024, 01:55:12 pm »
Quote from: stamfordman on October 25, 2024, 01:51:37 pm
I can't see you have a challenge on issues with Ringgo given you left without trying to pay first. 

Someone will no doubt check the PCN for errors as we don't see many from Herefordshire. 

One point is the contravention: Parked without clearly displaying a valid pay and display ticket or voucher. Here it should include virtual tickets (although not sure if this code has such amendment) but as there is also a machine I don't think that's a runner. A correct contravention is simply not paying.

Yeh I don't think I have a challenge. However, this is interesting.

I could argue the point that the alleged offence was irrelevant? I don't know.

15
Civil penalty charge notices (Councils, TFL and so on) / Re: PCN - Herefordshire council. 5 mins grace??!
« on: October 25, 2024, 01:40:22 pm »
Quote from: stamfordman on October 25, 2024, 01:28:03 pm
Observed from 17:18 not 17:08.

Why did you walk away from the car without first paying?

I was in a hurry

Pages: [1] 2