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Messages - stamfordman

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1
The Flame Pit / Re: New car recommendations please?
« on: Today at 12:53:43 pm »
Top full (all size) and mild hybrids (medium size) from Which?

There are cars with higher scores say 84% in other categories. I doubt you could go wrong with a Honda.





2
It's not true you had to go back through this restriction, which is essentially a timed bus gate.

We had success here when it was first introduced on a couple of factors now long gone.

Hippo may have something on PCN or website wording.

Otherwise I'd suggest paying the first and asking for discretion on the second.

Where were you going and what for?

3
The OP hasn't posted the PCN, which may give us a clue.

4
I would just say the car is well maintained and there was no previous issue with that battery (if true).

The discount was not reoffered so nothing to lose by appealing.

Somone may spot something about the NOR.





5
Looks like you parked on a clear yellow line with a nearby timeplate. The line puts you on notice to check for a timeplate or controlled zone.

So not seeing anything to continue. But I can't see council pics online for some reason.



6
@tincombe may be able to shed light on the regs for off-street parking. The adjudicator seems to have arrived at the conclusion that there was no relevant signage for the contravention but not that the PPA sign is an on-street sign (or at least is used on-street).

------------

Case reference   2250680032
Appellant   xxxxxxx
Authority   London Borough of Southwark
VRM   GJ07XKO
PCN Details
PCN   JK17234954
Contravention date   27 Sep 2025
Contravention time   12:19:00
Contravention location   ST SAVIOUR ESTATE
Penalty amount   GBP 160.00
Contravention   Parked causing an obstruction
Referral date   -
Decision Date   16 Jun 2026
Adjudicator   Chez Cotton
Appeal decision   Appeal allowed
Direction   
cancel the Penalty Charge Notice and the Notice to Owner.

Reasons   
Introduction


1. The Appellant challenges a Penalty Charge Notice (PCN) issued for being parked causing an obstruction (Code 92).

2. This appeal was scheduled as an online hearing at which the Appellant and the Enforcement Authority (EA) were due to attend in person. The Appellant attended on time, as scheduled. However, the EA did not attend at 12.15, as scheduled. The Adjudicator and Appellant waited for ten minutes. However, in the absence of the EA representative, and without any contact being made with the Tribunal, the hearing commenced with the Adjudicator and Appellant in attendance.

The Appellant’s case


3. The Appellant’s case is set out as, ‘1. Contravention did not occur: The alleged contravention is off-street but there are no terms conditions posted there that establish the area as an off-street carpark. The only sign is an entry sign for an on-street permit parking area, and Southwark in its notice of rejection says parking rules that apply to the road apply to the off-road area and that it was a contravention of the Highway Code. This cannot possibly be the case for the alleged off-street contravention, which has not been established by any signage and terms. 2. Procedural impropriety. Southwark's notice of rejection does not have these mandatory items in the Appeals regulation: It does not describe the form and manner in which an appeal to an adjudicator must be made It does not include that an appeal can be made within such longer period as the adjudicator may allow.

4. The Appellant confirmed in the hearing that he has a resident parking permit and showed this in evidence.

5. The Appellant confirmed he was not causing an obstruction. He parked with care next to the van in the photograph. The van had more than enough room to exit. There was enough room for every garage owner to leave and enter the garage and their spaces. The Appellant confirmed he is a resident on the estate and would never park in a way that caused an obstruction for other vehicles.

6. In these circumstances the Appellant asks for the PCN to be cancelled.

Enforcement Authority’s Case


7. The Enforcement Authority (EA) rely on photographic evidence to show the contravention occurred. A plan and photographs of the signage has been provided. The EA says this shows the restriction is signed and clear, and, further, enforceable under a valid Traffic Management Order (TMO), a copy of which is provided.

8. The EA has considered the Appellant's representations. The EA state, ‘...the Civil Enforcement Officer (CEO) observed the vehicle parked in ST SAVIOUR ESTATE parked causing an obstruction, in the context, upon an entrance into the estate itself as well as in front of garages, which is not permissible. The photographic evidence is self-explanatory to prove the contravention.’

9. The EA add, ‘Where there is a car park area within the estate car park, drivers are required to park within the designated area. Vehicles are only allowed to park in a marked parking space in the car park.’

10. The EA further state, ‘In response to the appellant’s comments that the only sign is an entry sign for an on street permit parking area, we can confirm that this is not the case, the vehicle entered and was parked within the confines of an estate and the photographic evidence clearly demonstrate that said location whereby the vehicle would have past the signage. For your ready reference, we have added additional evidence (type J) to substantiate the signage relates to an estate and bears no relevance to an entry sign for on-street parking.’

11. The EA state there has been no procedural impropriety, and they have observed all relevant requirements imposed.

12. The EA does not wish to exercise their discretion.

13. The EA maintain the PCN was correctly issued.

Findings and Conclusion


14. I have considered all materials presented by both parties. Although each piece of evidence is not specifically referred to, it has contributed to, and informed, the decision I have made.

15. I found the Appellant to be credible and measured in this evidence.

16. Based on the photographic evidence footage provided, and additional evidential materials from the EA, I am satisfied the Appellant’s vehicle was parked in the relevant location, at the relevant time. This is not in dispute.

17. I am further satisfied that if a contravention has occurred, it is enforceable by way of a valid Traffic Management Order, which I have seen.

18. The Appellant referred to an off-street carpark requiring particular signage and terms and conditions of parking, although was unable to direct me to any regulation or legislation on which he relied. In fact, off street carpark signs do not have to comply with any specific rule or regulation, or to convey ‘terms and conditions.’ It is necessary only for the signage to convey the correct information and not mislead, so the question is whether the signage at the relevant location is substantially compliant, clear and adequate.

19. In this respect I have consider the signage in place at the relevant location. In the Civil Enforcement Officer (CEO) photographs I am able to see a partial sign to the right (looking at the screen) of the entrance to the garage ‘Permit holders parking only past this point.’ A photograph of the full sign is provided by the EA at Evidence J, and what is omitted in the CEO photograph is ‘P E-SS’.

20. The Appellant accepted in the hearing, that the full sign in the additional EA evidence is the signage at the relevant location. The Appellant confirmed he has an E.SS permit, which I accepted to be true.

21. Although the EA state the contravention is evident in the photographs, on balance, I do not accept this to be the case. On balance, I accept there is sufficient room for the van next to the Appellant’s vehicle to move, and for vehicles to enter and exit from the garages. I accepted the Appellant’s evidence as credible in this respect, and his knowledge of the garages and the space required to manoeuvre.

22. Further, the EA has set out that a motorist on the estate must park in marked bays only. The EA has provided a number of photographs of places on the estate with marked bays. However, the CEO photographs shows a carpark without marked bays. There is no reference on the signage to parking in marked bays only. The signage states ‘permit holder parking only’ beyond this point. The Appellant is a permit holder, and so, based on the signage, entitle to park beyond that point, as he did. The Adjudicator is unsure if the EA is intending that it is only those permit holders who have garages that the sign is intended for. However, this is not what the sign says.

23. The EA go on to state that there is signage the Appellant would have had to pass, and that the car park within the confines of an estate. However, I am unable to satisfy myself of the relevance of this to the CEO photograph and the location at which the Appellant was parked. There has been no evidence presented as to any other sign the Appellant would have parked, or how any other signage would undermine the clarity of the signage at the point of entry to the space in which the Appellant parked.

24. Therefore, I find, on balance, that the Appellant was entitled as a permit holder to pass the relevant point, and park. I further find, based on the CEO photographic evidence, and the credibility of the Appellant’s evidence in the hearing, that no obstruction was caused, or would be caused by parking as the Appellant did.

25. Because of my decision, it is not necessary for me to consider whether there has been any procedural impropriety.

26. For the reasons outlined I find a contravention did not occur and the PCN has not been validly issued.


Decision

27. The appeal is allowed.

 

7
Did Sixt just email you the PCN with no instructions?

8
No one has said you have a case. I was referring to cases where people were within the 10 minute and the rejection you queried is about not having a permit. But you were over 10 mins.

Observation is only about checking for exempt activity - what were you doing? And of course the CEO waited for the 10 min expiry to be sure of the contravention.

9
The Flame Pit / Re: DifferingPCNs:London v.the rest
« on: Yesterday at 05:47:36 pm »
The London mayor is only responsible for TFL red routes so you'd expect the highest penalties on these.

Last year, London Councils raised penalties from those set in 2011 for the London boroughs but they are a bit lower than TFL's and still have two bands for inner and parts of outer London.   

Scotland raised penalties recently.

We've seen at least one experimental higher rate elsewhere (Bournemouth).

Clean air zones have higher penalties than parking.

This report recommended increasing civil penalty charges under Traffic Management Act 2004 to £130 (where higher rate applies) / £100 (where lower rate applies) owing to inflation at least as the £70/£50 regime dates back to 2008.

https://data.parliament.uk/DepositedPapers/Files/DEP2025-0736/PATROL_BPA_Research_On_PCN_Levels.pdf

10
To add a bit more...

We've had mixed success with this but our reading of the law is that provided you were in a designated parking place the 10 mins does apply.

But at 15:11 that means you were over 10 mins as 15:10 and zero secs is 10 mins but as they don't take seconds into account you have in effect until just before the end of the 11th minute. At 15:11 you are starting the 12th min.  

Is my reading.   

---------

https://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2015/561/made

2.—(1) The Civil Enforcement of Parking Contraventions (England) General Regulations 2007(2) are amended as follows.

(2) In regulation 4 (imposition of penalty charges)—

(a)re-number the existing provision as (1);

(b)at the end insert—

“(2) Paragraph (3) applies in relation to a contravention mentioned in subparagraph (a) to (c) of paragraph (1) where a vehicle is stationary in a designated parking place and the vehicle has been left beyond the permitted parking period.

(3) No penalty charge is payable for the contravention where the vehicle has been left beyond the permitted parking period for a period not exceeding 10 minutes.

(4) In this regulation—

(a)“designated parking place” means a parking place established by virtue of an order made under section 1, 6, 9, 32(1)(b), 35 or 45 of the Road Traffic Regulation Act 1984(3);

(b)“permitted parking period” means—

(i)a period of parking that has been paid for as authorised by or under any order made relating to the designated parking place; or

(ii)a period of parking for which no charge is payable as authorised by or under any order made relating to the designated parking place.”

11
This needs tweaking. We'll know more if they contest it.

---------

Contravention did not occur

By the council's own evidence, both photos and correspondence, I was parked on an unmarked length of road. The council's position is that this is situated within a Pedestrian and Cycle zone and therefore they are relieved of their duty to place yellow lines to indicate 'No waiting at any time' by virtue of placing mandated traffic signs at the zone entrance.

The council have not presented any signs in evidence but my examination of Goggle Maps reveals a pedestrian zone entry sign prescribed for use as 'No Stopping at any time' and a repeater that says 'restricted parking zone' - not pedestrian zone. This is a totally different restriction to no waiting, a distinction which seems to have escaped the council.

Absent the mandatory traffic signs which permit the council to dispense with placing 'no waiting' markings, I submit that the contravention did not occur.

In addition, even if such a restriction applied I was exempt from its provisions by virtue of 'loading'.

I also dispute the service of the PCN by post as I believe I did not prevent the CEO from serving the PCN at the location.

12
You must register the appeal right now with the tribunal. That's all that matters at this point.

13
That's odd. Using Chrome on a Mac with details:

Penalty charge notice MW94722827
Vehicle registration FE20KXC

I get:


14
If you are appealing to the tribunal:

- Opt for an online or telephone hearing

- Summarise all points for the adjudicator, picking up all relevant points in the NOR. Your reps will be in the evidence pack anyway, should the council contest the appeal. 

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