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Messages - Chr1s100

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1
Thanks Stamfordman,

I was trying to adapt my original appeal draft to be more like your suggestion, I wasn't really clear on the difference you were suggesting from my original and your proposed alternative (i.e. I had already mentioned the "alleged contravention" and the signage being inadequate, so it seemed like starting with being puzzled was what you were recommending. I obviously misunderstood that). As you mention, it seems like there is a good chance they would reject either way, which they did.

I have now received the Notice to Owner which I attach below:









I intend to make a representation online.

My proposed representation details are:
I was puzzled to receive the PCN as it appeared I had parked in an unrestricted street. On further investigation I have found that the street is in a large permit parking area, but on retracing my steps I contend that the contravention did not occur owing to the entry signage on my approach being inadequate.

I entered Wellington Road from the High Street. The entry sign on the left-hand side of the carriageway (the nearside for drivers entering from this direction) has been rotated approximately 90 degrees, rendering it not visible to approaching drivers. I attach a photograph of this sign in its rotated condition.

Sections of Wellington Road are marked with double yellow lines and single yellow lines with accompanying signage. I parked in a section with no road markings and no signage of any kind, reasonably concluding it was unrestricted. I attach a photograph of my car parked in an unsigned and unmarked area.

I further note that the Department for Transport's Traffic Signs Manual Chapter 3, paragraph 13.10.2, states that permit parking areas designated by entry signs alone (without bay markings) are suitable for "a cul-de-sac or a small network of roads with little or no through traffic." Wellington Road is a through road with a mini roundabout. The application of entry-sign-only designation to this large, complex zone covering multiple through roads is inconsistent with this guidance, making it inherently difficult for unfamiliar drivers to identify the restriction.

==

I only expect to be able to attach 4 photos, below are the 4 I am proposing to include - there is a 5th which shows the double yellow lines but I think this is less relevant. There are other photos in earlier posts which might be relevant. If any photos taht should be included are not here, please let me know:
Photo 1 - Entry sign at Wellington Road/High Street junction showing sign rotated ~90 degrees


Photo 2 - Car clearly parked outside single yellow line restricted area. Ahead, you can see a lamp post adjacent to the single yellow line zone, this is where the Civil Enforcement Officer's photo of signage is from:


Photo 3 - Parking restriction sign. This is the sign from the Civil Enforcement Officer's photo which is in the distance in photo 2:


Photo 4 - Map of the permit parking zone and extract from DfT Traffic Signs Manual Chapter 3, Section 13.10


Photo 5 - Car parked outsize double yellow restricted area:

2
So I adjusted the wording and appealed and the appeal has been rejected.

I had to edit the appeal slightly before submitting as it would only allow 4 photos to be attached but the appeal said pretty much this:


I was extremely surprised and frustrated to find a parking ticket had been put on my car as it appeared I had parked on an unrestricted street and I am always very conscious to park in a legal and considerate manner.
Upon finding the ticket, I took photos of the car as parked and walked along the street re-checking for signs to indicate that there was any sort of restriction in place. As I had noticed when I first parked, there were some sections of the road marked with parking restriction signs, but these were a distance away from the section of road I was parked on and had single yellow lines. There were also sections of the road with double yellow lines, however I was parked on a completely unmarked section of the road with no signs.
At this point I went home and was confident that there had been a mistake because even after looking around, there was nothing to suggest restrictions in place where I had parked.
Upon returning home and on further investigation I have found out that the street is in a large permit parking area, with signs at entries to this large area (albeit not on the section of road that I had parked on). I had not found these signs even when walking around the area to look for signs after receiving a ticket due to their distance from my parking location and seeming irrelevance to the section of road I was actually parked on.
After identifying this restriction online, I returned to the area again retracing my steps and contend that the contravention did not occur owing to the entry signage on my approach being inadequate. There are no signposts on either end of this section of the road from the mini roundabout down to the other end where the road meets Nelson road to suggest that there are restrictions which apply to this section of street. The signage at the entrance to Wellington Road from the High Street was not readily visible at the time of the alleged contravention. The sign on the left-hand side of the carriageway has been turned through approximately 90 degrees, rendering it effectively invisible to drivers entering the road from this direction.
Having missed the obscured entry sign due to its condition and identifying no signs or markings that indicated any parking restrictions related to the unmarked section of road after passing the mini roundabout, I reasonably concluded that this area was unrestricted. I took care to observe the visible parking restrictions on the road, noting areas marked with double yellow lines and single yellow lines with accompanying signage. I deliberately parked in a section with no road markings and no visible signage indicating any restriction. In the absence of road markings or visible signage, it was reasonable to conclude that this section of the street was unrestricted.
Upon researching further, I have identified that the permit parking area in question does not conform to the Department for Transport's Traffic Signs Manual Chapter 3, which provides guidance on the appropriate use of permit parking areas designated by entry signs alone (without bay markings). Paragraph 13.10.2 of the guidance states that this type of signing is suitable for "a cul-de-sac or a small network of roads with little or no through traffic" and warns that "otherwise the lack of road markings might tempt drivers unfamiliar with the area to park." Wellington Road is a through road with a mini roundabout, not a cul-de-sac or small enclosed network. The current arrangement covers a large zone of multiple roads with unclear boundaries.
It is extremely difficult for drivers to identify that there is a restriction at all unless you notice the signs at the boundaries of this large section and then map out the boundaries of the restriction area. Even had the entry signage been visible, the application of this signing method to such a large and complex area is inconsistent with the official guidance, which anticipates its use only where drivers can reasonably be expected to understand the extent of the restricted area.
As explained, there are clearly several issues with this charge and I request that this is promptly cancelled to avoid causing any further unfair and unwarranted disruption for something that was the result of poor and inadequate signage.
I attach the following photographic and pictorial evidence:
1. Photograph showing vehicle parked outside the single yellow line restricted area
2. Photograph showing vehicle parked outside the double yellow line area
3. Photograph showing distance between vehicle and the single yellow line restriction (Not included in the end)
4. Photograph of entry sign at Wellington Road/High Street junction, showing sign rotated 90 degrees
5. Map of the permit parking zone (merged with photo 6 to keep within 4 photo limit for redbridge site)
6. Department for Transport Traffic Signs Manual Chapter 3 extract (Section 13.10 – Permit Parking Areas)

Here is the response:





I assume I'm now waiting for a Notice to Owner?

3
Any thoughts on the proposed appeal before I send it? Thanks very much

4
Thanks very much,

Here is my proposed appeal:

The signage at the entrance to Wellington Road from the High Street was not readily visible at the time of the alleged contravention. The sign on the left-hand side of the carriageway has been turned through approximately 90 degrees, rendering it effectively invisible to drivers entering the road from this direction.

Furthermore, Wellington Road is divided by a mini roundabout into two distinct sections. The section where my vehicle was parked has no signage at either entry point indicating parking restrictions. Having missed the obscured entry sign due to its condition, and finding no further signage upon entering the second section of the road, I reasonably concluded that this area was unrestricted.

I took care to observe the visible parking restrictions on the road, noting areas marked with double yellow lines and single yellow lines with accompanying signage. I deliberately parked in a section with no road markings and no visible signage indicating any restriction. In the absence of road markings or visible signage, it was reasonable to conclude that this section of the street was unrestricted.

The permit parking area in question does not conform to the Department for Transport's Traffic Signs Manual Chapter 3, which provides guidance on the appropriate use of permit parking areas designated by entry signs alone (without bay markings).

Paragraph 13.10.2 of the guidance states that this type of signing is suitable for "a cul-de-sac or a small network of roads with little or no through traffic" and warns that "otherwise the lack of road markings might tempt drivers unfamiliar with the area to park." Wellington Road is a through road with a mini roundabout, not a cul-de-sac or small enclosed network.

The guidance further notes that where a permit parking area "comprises a through road or is used for access to other roads not included in the area," specific amended wording should be used on signage. The current arrangement covers a large zone of multiple roads with unclear boundaries, making it difficult for drivers unfamiliar with the area to identify which streets are included in the restriction.

Even had the entry signage been visible, the application of this signing method to such a large and complex area is inconsistent with the official guidance, which anticipates its use only where drivers can reasonably be expected to understand the extent of the restricted area.

Attached Evidence:

Photograph showing vehicle parked outside the single yellow line restricted area


Photograph showing vehicle parked outside the double yellow line area


Photograph showing distance between vehicle and the single yellow line restriction


Photograph of entry sign at Wellington Road/High Street junction, showing sign rotated 90 degrees


Map of the permit parking zone


Department for Transport Traffic Signs Manual Chapter 3 extract (Section 13.10 – Permit Parking Areas)

5
On that basis, how would you recommend is best to take this forwards?

6
I turned left into Wellington road from the high street, passed the twisted sign at the end of the road (although didn't see any signs at the time). I drove down that part of Wellington road then went across the mini roundabout onto latter part of Wellington road (which has no signs at either end of that section) and parked up.

7
Thanks very much,

Based on the information you've shared, there seem to be several possible grounds for appealing based on the permit parking set up itself, as well as an example where the left hand twisted sign has been used successfully to appeal a PCN.

How would you recommend is best to take this forwards?

8
I came down the road where the sign is twisted round, went round the mini roundabout and parked up.

I've parked there before without any issues, not sure when the last time was though and I don't know when they brought these restrictions in.

9
I have driven round and this is a map of the permit parking area where each red line indicates an entrance point with two signs, one on either side of the road.


One of the two signs at the top of Wellington road is currently at 90 degrees, so facing down the footpath.



10
Council: Redbridge council
Alleged contravention: Code 16, parking in a permit space or zone without a permit.
Location: Wellington Road, Wanstead, Redbridge

Just received a PCN on car windscreen parked on a section of the road with no obvious parking restrictions.
The road has a section of double yellow lines, a section of single yellow lines which also has a parking restriction sign, and then a section of road with no markings or signs.
The car was parked on the section of road with no markings or signs but received a yellow ticket on the windscreen regardless.

Photos attached of the layout described above including my car parked as well as of the PCN. My car is the grey VW polo.

I would like to make an appeal and would like advice on the best way to approach this. It seems fairly clear to me that if the sign applies to the section of the road that the car was parked on, then these signs and markings are not adequate and are misleading because the single yellow line clearly ends before where my car is parked, however, I am quite willing to believe that putting just this information into an appeal may well not be accepted and therefore I would like advice on how best to approach this.

Please let me know if I have left out any required information, thanks in advance for any help you can provide.

https://maps.app.goo.gl/keYz7FT6PbyuE5Kg8

- PCN FRONT
- PCN BACK
- Car outside single yellow zone 1
- Car outside single yellow zone 2
- Car outside double yellow zone
- parking sign and single yellow line


11
Thanks very much for your responses. This is really helpful and seems I would have had a chance to contest the charge.

Unfortunately, I have now paid the amount as I was concerned about getting too close to the deadline and forgetting to pay it and it costing more money.

I now know the instructions mention about how to attach images and that responses can take 7 to 10 days.

Whilst I had skim read the instructions, I hadn't looked at the details as this sort of thing isn't something I'm very good at. Also, I am using my phone for this which isn't the easiest to carry out this sort of thing.

I feel silly now and sorry if I've wasted people's time. I'll know better for any future issues, hopefully there won't be any!

12
Thanks very much.

Struggling with attachments unfortunately.

I will check signage in person to ensure still same as what Google maps shows.

13
I have received a PCN for stopping at a restricted bus stop. I did stop there but did not realise that I couldn't stop there. There were no signs that communicate this information adequately for me to know this but perhaps legally there was sufficient signage or markings.

My question is what are the legal signage or markings required to appear for this to be valid and enforceable?/what would I need to evidence about the signage to appeal successfully?

This was on Wanstead high street heading towards Wanstead tube station in Redbridge. There appears from Google maps to be a sign at the very end of the bus stop where the bus shelter is (bus stop is approx 3 bus lengths long). I stopped at the start of the bus stop.

https://maps.app.goo.gl/w2y1GDVngMgPLrdn7?g_st=ac

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