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Messages - duncedunce

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Civil penalty charge notices (Councils, TFL and so on) / Re: Time limit to serve PCN? - Sutton (London) - Failing to comply with a restriction on vehicles entering a pedestrian
« on: June 03, 2024, 08:15:40 pm »
I have received the rejection letter for my reps:




I'm still awaiting a response from the lease company for the documents. I expect this to take a few days.

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Civil penalty charge notices (Councils, TFL and so on) / Re: Time limit to serve PCN? - Sutton (London) - Failing to comply with a restriction on vehicles entering a pedestrian
« on: June 03, 2024, 06:30:48 pm »
Hello everyone

Here are the lease documents. I hope I've redacted what I need (and not too much):








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Civil penalty charge notices (Councils, TFL and so on) / Re: Time limit to serve PCN? - Sutton (London) - Failing to comply with a restriction on vehicles entering a pedestrian
« on: May 31, 2024, 02:37:26 pm »
Thank you for your responses @Enceledus and @cp8759. I have been on holiday for a few days, so sorry for the time taken to respond.

Apologies also for not spotting it was a charge certificate and not the PCN. I should have realised it wasn't a PCN, but I am new to this and was rushing to get it uploaded rather than going through it.

@Enceladus, I agree that the wording and timelines evident from the charge certificate raise questions. However, I doubt I would ever get a useful response. This is a NHS Fleet Hire car, paid through salary sacrifice. NHS Fleet Hire acts as an intermediary between the leasee and the lease companies they use, and all my requests are going through them. But the contract is between Lex Autolease and myself.

@cp8759 I have a copy of the lease agreement now, and will upload it (suitably redacted) later. I have now made a request for:
  • the PCN served on Lex Autolease,
  • the representations by Lex Autolease, and
  • any response by LB Sutton to the representations (or a statement that such a response was not received)
I've also requested any other correspondence held by Lex Autolease about this matter.

Many thanks to everyone for the support and advice so far.

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Civil penalty charge notices (Councils, TFL and so on) / Re: Time limit to serve PCN? - Sutton (London) - Failing to comply with a restriction on vehicles entering a pedestrian
« on: May 25, 2024, 12:34:33 am »
Ah, thank you

So, I presume I need to go back to the lease company and ask again for the PCN, pointing out this isn't it ?

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Civil penalty charge notices (Councils, TFL and so on) / Re: Time limit to serve PCN? - Sutton (London) - Failing to comply with a restriction on vehicles entering a pedestrian
« on: May 24, 2024, 07:27:10 pm »
Good evening everyone

I submitted the representations via the webform this evening
Quote
REPRESENTATIONS against PCN SU8012499A
PCN dated 13 May 2024
Representations submitted 24 May 2024

Dear London Borough of Sutton

I challenge liability on the basis that the penalty charge notice has been served out of time.

Yours faithfully

XXXXXX

DECLARATION: I confirm that the information contained in my representation is correct to the best of my knowledge. I understand that making a false statement may result in prosecution and a fine not exceeding level 5 on the standard scale.

Name: XXXXX
Signature: (attached)
Date: 24 May 2024

It looks like the lease company were not accurate on their dates when they informed me of the PCN (saying they'd received it that day - it was a month earlier). Here's the PCN:





I can't find a copy of my lease agreement, so I've approached the lease company for a copy.

Many thanks everyone

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Civil penalty charge notices (Councils, TFL and so on) / Re: Time limit to serve PCN? - Sutton (London) - Failing to comply with a restriction on vehicles entering a pedestrian
« on: May 16, 2024, 10:39:27 pm »
Thank you @cp8759. Apologies for the additional thread and thank you for tidying it up.

I'll use your suggested representations wording to the Council - following their instructions - at the end of next week. The date of notice was 13th, so in theory I have until 27th to make representations (I thought notices sent by post are deemed served 2 business days later, but that's not an argument I need to get into), but I'll submit late on the 24th.

I'll message the lease company tomorrow asking for a copy of the PCN they received. They responded within a couple of hours last time, so if I don't get a response by midday Monday, I'll chase by phone.

I'll dig through my lease agreement and post a redacted version here.

I have a copy of the V5C and it has the name and address of the lease company in the Registered Keeper section.

Many thanks again.

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Civil penalty charge notices (Councils, TFL and so on) / SUTTON (London) - 53C FTCW restriction on vehicles entering a pedestrian and cycle zone- Camden Road
« on: May 16, 2024, 12:24:16 pm »
Many thanks for the advice from @Incandescent and @cp8759 on my previous thread here: Time limit to serve PCN? - Sutton (London) - Failing to comply with a restriction on vehicles entering a pedestrian etc

I received the copy of the PCN yesterday, addressed to me. Copy below.






I don't dispute I was the driver, and that the images on the website are of the vehicle. The signage was in place (Streetview is very old so does not show the signs), I was just unfamiliar with the route due to road closures in the area and ended up going down that road in an attempt to get to the route I know, not seeing the signage as I was concentrating on other dangers around the road.

Google streetview

Images linked to the PCN (there's a brief video, too, but it doesn't add anything)





However, I do feel aggrieved that the alleged offience was on 20 February 2024, and it has taken the Council two and a half months to serve the PCN on my lease company (last week), who then redirected to me. This seems an excessive time to me and unreasonable.

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Civil penalty charge notices (Councils, TFL and so on) / Re: Time limit to serve PCN? - Sutton (London) - Failing to comply with a restriction on vehicles entering a pedestrian
« on: May 09, 2024, 01:50:15 pm »
Ugh

Response from the lease company:
Quote
Good afternoon XXXX,
 
The PCN is valid.
 
The PCN gets issued to your lease company first, then transfers to ourselves, which then transfers to yourself.
 
The counter date resets each time this gets transferred.
 
Kind regards

XXXX
I don't really want to get into a slanging match with the lease company. As I see it, they had a right to challenge that the PCN was valid, but they have decided not to do so.

Grrr

Any thoughts while I'm waiting for the PCN to come to me?

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Civil penalty charge notices (Councils, TFL and so on) / Re: Time limit to serve PCN? - Sutton (London) - Failing to comply with a restriction on vehicles entering a pedestrian
« on: May 09, 2024, 12:49:14 pm »
Thank you @Incandescent

I've emailed my lease company back explaining the PCN was out of time and therefore not a lawful PCN. I've asked them to put that challenge to the council.  I've asked to be copied into or forwarded the follow up email to the council.

Hopefully, the lease company will do that. But they may not.

I'll update this thread on whether they do or don't contact the council about it being an out of time PCN.

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Civil penalty charge notices (Councils, TFL and so on) / Re: Time limit to serve PCN? - Sutton (London) - Failing to comply with a restriction on vehicles entering a pedestrian
« on: May 08, 2024, 06:51:18 pm »
Quote from: Incandescent on May 08, 2024, 05:30:31 pm
Not sure what you mean by this: -
Quote
"they received *today* (8 May) a representation for a parking penalty charge"
Surely they just received a PCN which they responded to.
Thank you for responding @Incandescent. It was the wording used by the leasing company. Here it is in full:

Quote
Dear XXXX

For your information we have today received and processed a representation for a parking charge involving your lease vehicle.

To avoid any risk of the cost escalating we recommend that you review the PCN details and evidence via the London Borough of Sutton website with the details below:

PCN Number: XXXX
Vehicle Registration Number: XXXX

Should you be satisfied with the details of the charge, please settle this directly with the issuer via their website.

In line with your contract we have provided your name and postal address to London Borough of Sutton who will write to you directly. If you would like to appeal the charge, please wait until you receive the notice through the post in your name before submitting your appeal. If you have not received this notice within 3 weeks of this email, please contact us via email at XXXX.

If the address below is incorrect, please let us know as soon as possible.
XXXX
XXXX
XXXX
XXXX

Please be advised [we] do not hold these PCN details on file and will be unable to provide further information on the specific offence details at this time.

I, too, guess they've just responded to a PCN by providing my details (as the leasee), for the council to pursue.

[EDIT: though it isn't a "parking charge" as set out in the email, it's a penalty charge, but that makes little difference. Looking it up, the penalty code is likely to be 53 "Failing to comply with a restriction on vehicles entering a pedestrian and cycle zone." but the website doesn't give that detail, so I will only know once the council contact me]

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Civil penalty charge notices (Councils, TFL and so on) / Time limit to serve PCN? - Sutton (London) - Failing to comply with a restriction on vehicles entering a pedestrian etc
« on: May 08, 2024, 01:52:01 pm »
Hi
I've just been informed by my lease hire company that they received *today* (8 May) a representation for a parking penalty charge for failing to comply with a restriction on vehicles entering a pedestrian and cycle zone on 20 February 2024. I've not seen the PCN yet, but they've let the council know I was the driver.

Is there a time limit for the council to serve such a PCN? This seems to be over 2 months since the alleged offence.

It's annoying. I didn't see/take on board the signs, and it was 10 mins before the end of the restricted period (it's one of the school ones and I don't normally go that way, so didn't realise). But I'm bang to rights unless there's a time limit to serve the PCN, I guess.

Thanks for reading

[Edit: getting the "P" right in PCN!]

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