Show Posts - RS123

Thank you @cp8579 for taking the time to lay out the potential arguments.Since they’ve cancelled one of the two PCNs,and because I’d likely be relying more on them messing up than on any strong arguments, I’ve decided to pay at the discounted rate.

UPDATEMy reps have been rejected as per the following:Notice of Rejection Pg 1Notice of Rejection Pg 2I need to decide whether to go to the Independent Adjudicator with this one. Will the fact that they cancelled my second PCN have any bearing on how the adjudicator views the remaining PCN or the council's 'generosity'?I will try to put something together but just wanted to report back and find out if anyone has any initial thoughts as to whether it is worth me appealing to the IA?

UPDATENotice of Rejection Pg 1Notice of Rejection Pg 2This PCN has been cancelled. As per Page 2 of the Notice of Rejection, reason given is due to receiving multiple PCNs in succession.I don't know if I believe this or if they just want me to be grateful and pay the other PCN that they haven't cancelled! But either way I am happy about this end result.I need to decide whether to appeal the first PCN - will revert to the other thread and will be grateful for your thoughts in relation to this.

Quote from: Hippocrates on 01 Apr, 2024 20:48This?: http://forums.pepipoo.com/index.php?showtopic=153778&pid=1812293&mode=threaded&start=#entry1812293Fantastic, thanks so much. I hadn't been notified of that response so hadn't seen it until you pointed it out.

Quote from: cp8759 on 01 Apr, 2024 17:53You can do both, but I'd suggest putting them in a file share and then setting up a link with a click counter, so you can determine whether the council has actually looked at them. Do you know how to do that, or would you like me to set the links up for you?A file share as in something like a folder in Google Drive containing two files: the appeal in one and evidence of the conditional order in the other?I have no idea how  to set up the links so would appreciate your help.Thank you

Quote from: cp8759 on 01 Apr, 2024 17:02Do you have any supporting paperwork regarding your conditional offer going before the judge?HiI have an email from HMCTS Divorce and Dissolution that states that this will be taking place and another that says it has since taken place.Could I do both as in put make reps and go for mitigation (or are the two mutually exclusive)?

@Mmvredux@Pastmybest@Hippocrates@Neil B@Incandescent@taffer87@H C Andersen You all advised in relation to my previous PCN on the same road. If you are able to advise on the above as I need to make reps tomorrow I'd be most grateful.

Quote from: cp8759 on 01 Apr, 2024 00:43@RS123 I can't see any obvious issues, I have found the map tile at https://store.traffweb.app/croydon/documents/parkmap/msched/N14_rv2_2.pdf and the signs seem to be located where they should be.This is the sort of case where I'd suggest the strategy of last resort described here.Do you have any mitigation we could use?Thank you @cp8759. In terms of mitigation, I am currently going through a divorce (with children involved). The 'Conditional Order' was going in front of a judge on 15th March and this alleged contravention happened on 13th March; I don't know if that would be considered mitigating...At the same time, I would like to make some reps on the basis of:1) Inadequate signage - A single warning sign has been placed on the left hand side of the road only (as opposed to on both sides of the road), next to a cycle storage unit and there are a number of parked vehicles so, with all of this to consider, the sign could easily be missed. - The regulatory signs themselves on the approach to the junction of Holmesdale and Park Road are confusing. Given that one is approaching a junction, one would not expect to be entering a restricted zone. In addition, as bollards are visible across the junction, one might think that the restricted zone being referred to is the section (continuation) of Holmesdale Road located across the junction, rather than the small section of Holmesdale Road leading up to the junction.2) Purpose of the signage is redundantWhich 'zone' are the regulatory signs meant to be demarcating? Essentially the council has put up an isolated a regulatory sign to create a line in the road near the junction with another busy road, thereby generating revenue on the basis of creating a 'healthy neighbourhood' the extent of which is a section of road a few metres long and wide. I would argue that there is no protected zone since the signs are almost at the junction of Holmesdale Road and Park Road, and therefore the traffic management reasons for the signage are defunct. There is an isolated sign near the top of Holmesdale Road, which has no overall purpose certainly not the one dictated by the Traffic Order.3) The PCN is defectiveThe Contravention Code is required to have a suffix indicating which vehicles are prohibited. Since it does not, a procedural error is apparent and the PCN is null and void.Any advice on what I am thinking of putting forward tomorrow would be appreciated.

Hi AllI need to make reps on this by the end of play on Tuesday 2nd April. I had another PCN (on this same road but at the other end of the road) so was working on that appeal hence leaving this one a bit later than planned!Below are details of the PCN:PCNCouncil Image 1Council Image 2Council Video FootageI turned onto Holmesdale Road from Oliver Grove and drove down quite a significant stretch of Holmesdale Road. Near the end of this road, not far from the junction, there are regulatory signs for the prohibited vehicles which I didn't see at the time (appreciate this is my fault) and so I was issued a PCN.However, my question would be, I have crossed this alleged threshold but am essentially approaching the junction (of Holmesdale Road and Park Road) so where exactly is the Healthy Neighbourhood Zone that I have breached by entering? Across Park Road, the next section of Holmesdale Road is blocked off so essentially is the 'zone' a tiny red box at the junction of Holmesdale Road continuing across Park Road and then stopping at the physical barrier across the junction at the next part of Holmesdale Road?I have annotated my route on this map with a purple line and marked a red rectangle to show what appears to be the Healthy Neighbourhood Zone.Can anyone see flaws and/or grounds upon which I could appeal?Thanks in advance

Quote from: MMV Redux on 26 Mar, 2024 18:48OP-----The video shows, you are not leaving a restricted area but entering one at 371 Holmedale Road. The signpost has restrictions on both sides because it is an entry/egress prohibition.https://www.google.com/maps/@51.3996017,-0.0789027,3a,41y,57.71h,80.78t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1s3RDJXFu_OLVROiFCFf-C1A!2e0!7i16384!8i8192?entry=ttuErgo I doubt you entered the restriction at Oliver Grove because you are heading in the direction of Oliver Grove.However Oliver Grove was blocked off:-https://www.google.com/maps/@51.3996017,-0.0789027,3a,41y,57.71h,80.78t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1s3RDJXFu_OLVROiFCFf-C1A!2e0!7i16384!8i8192?entry=ttuhttps://www.google.com/maps/@51.3996017,-0.0789027,3a,75y,246.33h,70.81t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1s3RDJXFu_OLVROiFCFf-C1A!2e0!7i16384!8i8192?entry=ttuBut in your photo of the signage it isn't! That's why you were not given a 2nd PCN coming back through the signage. The Order spcifies entry and egress prohibitions. You exited via Oliver Grove (no bollards or planters).So the signage doesn't indicate the entry to a "zone" and the traffic management reasons given in the Order are defunct i.e.the “Croydon Healthy Neighbourhood”.You have at least 3 grounds for an appeal:-1) No advance warning signs as noted by hca;2) No protected zone--the prohibition signage has no purpose if the traffic management reasons of the Order have lapsed;3) The suffix issue which renders the PCN null and void.MikeThis is fantastic Mike, thank you so much for identifying/breaking down the grounds for appeal. I will be making reps later today on the above grounds.

Quote from: Neil B on 26 Mar, 2024 19:44Mick.He has already said he now has two pcns. I suspect the other is for Upper Grove cos a mate of mine has those two as well.@Neil B yes Upper Grove according to the PCN Location although I only drove on Holmesdale Road (not Upper Road) - will set up a separate thread for this. Did your friend appeal re that end of Holmesdale Road and, if so, was it successful?Quote from: Neil B on 26 Mar, 2024 19:44The alternative route available, to reach addresses within the LTN, appears to be Whitworth Road, looking at the area map.It's typical of other LTNs with multiple restrictions creating what is in effect a 'zone', as you say, and with only one or two ways without restriction.But how can anyone know where the unrestricted roads are?OP needs to submit representations online or by e-mail tomorrow latest to preserve the discount.@Neil B I agree, I had no clue about the LTN and possible alternative unrestricted roads. Thank you, will submit reps today.

Quote from: Neil B on 24 Mar, 2024 20:31The Gazette notice of what appears to be the relevant Order.https://www.thegazette.co.uk/notice/4166090Maybe I'm dumb (probably) but I can't see Oliver Road mentioned?It's worth asking for the full traffic order at some point.@Neil B You're definitely not dumb, I clearly am for ending up with two PCNs, a week apart on the same road, albeit in different locations  Yes I agree, the PCN Location refers to Oliver Grove, yet the regulatory signs are not situated at/on/near Oliver Grove.How do I request the full traffic order? Is there a particular department I would need to contact within the council?Quote from: Neil B on 24 Mar, 2024 20:31I suspect your other PCN was for Upper Grove? -- which IS mentioned.Yes, you are correct, my other PCN, for which I will create a separate thread, gives the Location as Holmesdale Road junction of Upper Grove

Hi AllThanks so much for taking the time to advise and comment.I will be making reps today. Just to clarify the route I took, I have annotated the attached CHN image with a purple line/arrows: Route DrivenSo whilst on South Norwood Hill, I turned right into Holmesdale Road, went through the regulatory signs at 371 Holmesdale Road and then turned left into Oliver Grove (as Mick said there are no longer bollards present to prevent entry into Oliver Grove).

Thank you everyone for your comments.Apologies for my ignorance but is the upshot that I could make reps of the basis that:1) The evidence they have provided doesn't show the signage that I should have seen 2) The 'certain types of vehicle' on the PCN isn't specific enoughAlso would I be making reps of any kind under the assumption that they will be rejected by the council but this buys me time to get the TMO and build a stronger case for possibly going to the independent adjudicator?

Links to photos and videos below:PCN Cover PageCouncil Photo 1Council Photo 2Council Video FootageSignageWarning Signage at Entrance to RoadHopefully this is everything that is needed to see if there are any flaws. If anyone can spot any grounds for reps, please advise.My Own POV (not that it will count for much in this appeals process):I appreciate that I approached the regulatory signs and continued driving therefore my fault. However, my query is: aren't prohibited zones typically a whole road or at least a significant section of road, as opposed to a small red box (dimensions: approx 1m x width of road) which you can approach from both ends of the road but cannot cross/enter?Given that the regulatory prohibition signs are roughly 60% of the way down this stretch of road, one is not expecting to drive down here and suddenly reach a threshold (red box) that one is not permitted to cross. Would drivers who were unfamiliar with the CHN but saw the signs be expected to respond by stopping and performing a 3 point turn in the middle of the road (even more so during busy times)?