Free Traffic Legal Advice
Live cases legal advice => Civil penalty charge notices (Councils, TFL and so on) => Topic started by: Eits1000 on August 23, 2025, 10:28:16 am
-
It'll likely depend upon their workload next March/April. You won't find out earlier IMO.
-
I have launched the tribunal appeal and received a hearing date in April next year. Does the council contest these generally or do they give up at this point sometimes?
-
Thanks for the above - so you are suggesting those 3 points are stronger case than the actual issue I'm debating them on? Do they charge for the next step in this appeals process?
There are no additional charges or costs at the adjudicators, just the PCN penalty if you lose. Nil to pay if you win, of course.
-
I have launched the tribunal appeal and received a hearing date in April next year. Does the council contest these generally or do they give up at this point sometimes?
-
Thanks for the above - so you are suggesting those 3 points are stronger case than the actual issue I'm debating them on? Do they charge for the next step in this appeals process?
-
You must discover how to post documents. If you appeal, then you would need to post elements of their evidence pack. Pl read the READ THIS FIRST section.
By way of example, you have omitted the date of the NOR.
IMO, the NOR as you have transposed it is defective in THREE respects:
If fails to notify you correctly of your statutory right of appeal;
It fails to notify you of the adjudicator's power to register an appeal submitted late;
It fails to notify you correctly of their power to increase the penalty.
Each one is a procedural impropriety and collectively they give you a very good chance at appeal IMO irrespective of the merits of your other representations.
You have to decide whether to appeal.
-
So you've ended up with two full price PCNs. You can take these to the tribunal but bear in mind we said it can't apply mitigation. An adjudicator can recommend cancellation or reduction to discount but it is not binding.
Harrow may not contest them but probably will.
-
I don't seem to be able to upload but letter is standard rejection and here is the text:
Penalty Charge Notice (parking ticket) number:HR77160681
Date of contravention: 03 Jun 2025
Location: WEST STREET
Vehicle registration: RF63ZNE
Thank you for writing to us.
We have carefully considered what you say but we have decided not to cancel your Penalty
Charge Notice (PCN).
There is a sign where you parked that explains that the space you parked in is for people
with a permit.
You were issued a PCN for parking without a permit that was both valid and clearly
displayed. Even if you have a permit, you have to display it so that a Civil Enforcement
Officer (CEO) can see all its details.
I note your representations stating that you were in the process of trying to arrange
the correct permit for this vehicle, and that the Council's permits department were slow
to respond, but that did not authorise you to park in a permit holder's space until this
was resolved.
If you did not have a valid permit to display as required at the time this PCN was
incurred, you should have parked at an alternative location, as you were not exempt from
this restriction.
You have 28 days from the date of this letter being served to:
• pay £140.00; or
• appeal to the Parking Adjudicator using the enclosed form. The Adjudicator can ask one
side to pay costs if he or she believes, for example, that they have been wholly unreasonable. However, the Adjudicator rarely asks either side to pay costs. The
Adjudicator is independent and both sides must accept the Adjudicator's decision.
If you do nothing
If, after 28 days, you have taken no action, we may send you a Charge Certificate increasing
the charge from £140.00 to £210.00. You will then have 14 days to pay the increased
charge. If, after the 14 days, you have not paid the increased charge, we may apply to the
County Court to recover the money - plus court costs - from you.
How to pay:
• online at www.harrow.gov.uk/pcn and click 'Pay'.
• by phone on (020) 8424 1220
Yours sincerely
Parking Representations Officer
-
Hi, I have now received two rejections from my appeal and being told I have 28 days for an independent appeal. Pls find the letter attached. Any help and guidance would be gratefully received, thank you.
-
Formal reps are often considered more carefully. Plus if they reject and don't reoffer the discount they'd have to contest the case at the tribunal if they want most of the penalty, which costs them time and a fee.
-
Obviously I know the difference in pounds is 70 pounds I was just asking if there was any difference in terms of the appeal process all the people who are going to be reading the appeal, and why would they treat it any differently to the first appeal?
-
What is the difference between the first appeal at £70 and the appeal I'm about to do at £140?
The first is an informal challenge, annd can be submitted by either the driver or the owner. The second is a formal representation against a Notice to Owner, and only the owner can submit this, or his authorised representative. However responsibility for a PCN always rests with the owner.
-
£70!
The penalty has always been £140. £70 is the discounted amount which the authority must accept if paid within the 14-day period commencing on the day each PCN was issued. After this they're entitled to pursue the full penalty.
-
What is the difference between the first appeal at £70 and the appeal I'm about to do at £140?
-
It would be very unusual these days if Harrow doesn't have an online system. What does it say on the NTO?
https://www.harrow.gov.uk/parking-permits/parking-fines-traffic-violations/2
-
Could someone please advise if the representation has to be made by post only? Can it be done online? Also what is the deadline if the notice letter says 18/08 (date of nto)? on it?
Many thanks!
-
OK I will just give it a shot and see what happens. As you say they seem correctly served, thays not in dispute really, let's see what happens, I'm asking for a bit of leniency towards a resident who was in discussion over a permit when I was ticketed. Let's see what happens I guess
-
OP, you are making this hard.
As it stands you have two PCNs that seem to have been correctly served.
The choice is to do what I suggested - ask to pay one at discount and for the other to be cancelled over the dispute - or ask for both to be cancelled. For the latter we think that depends on how difficult they were being but without the material we can't know.
What we do know is there must be solid procedural impropriety should you end up with two full price PCNs to take to the tribunal as it can't apply mitigation.
-
Very terse and not particularly helpful.
I'll ask again, pl post the key items of your correspondence with the council.
-
I have already posted those...
Does anyone have any advice on how I should proceed?
-
Thank you, I just spoke to the dealer I bought the car from and he sent me the link for requesting coc from BMW!
But how do I proceed regarding the councils fines...?
What email address did they provide? eccoc@bmw.co.uk perhaps?
As I understand it a Certificate of Conformity only applies to cars originally built for the EU & UK market. A Japanese market car wouldn't have one.
And indeed the UK BMW site says here (https://www.bmw.co.uk/uk/s/article/How-do-I-get-a-Certificate-of-Conformity-NsbOb?language=en_GB):
"Please Note: Not all vehicles have a Certificate of Conformity available, this is dependent on original manufacture specification and age of vehicle. If your vehicle was originally manufactured for a non EU market there will not be a Certificate of Conformity available.
We can only provide a Certificate of Conformity (if available) for vehicles originally sold to the UK market or EU vehicles coming into the UK for permanent registration."
I guess it doesn't cost anything to ask. So try anyway.
Do you know which tax (VED) band the car is in? How much does the VED cost?
Please post up the 1st pages of both NTOs. Only redact your name and address.
-
Without seeing any of the council's correspondence, who would know what angle you could take?
-
OK so any tips on how to appeal this? What I should include the angle to come in from etc?
-
They've issued a NTO and further enforcement (issuing a Charge Certificate) has been put on hold for the representations period. If you make reps in time then On Hold would continue until they consider and respond and for any period allowed for appealing to the adjudicator, if applicable.
-
I'm not sure one can haggle on payments with the council?
The second one says "on hold", not sure what that means.
-
I would pay one at discount if available (given you've had some free permit time) and politely ask for discretion on the second, given the muddle.
That's probably the best way to clear this up.
-
Thank you, I just spoke to the dealer I bought the car from and he sent me the link for requesting coc from BMW!
But how do I proceed regarding the councils fines...?
-
So at the end of all this messaging your conclusion is that I've just been a very naughty boy and I need to pay up and not bother the council? Just because I've not posted the conversations between myself and the council.
I'm not sure why things are so unclear for you, I've summarised it several times, there isn't really a need to post every email conversation, you just need to trust me - I tried to get a permit, it wasn't the correct price band so I asked them to please lower it, to which they said no. I tried lots of times and whilst doing so I got two tickets.
There isn't anything they said thst jumps out, they said it would be unfair to other residents if they lowered my tarrif without the proper certification from bmw. They refused the mot version of my emissions and also refused my like for like auto trader comparison.
Nothing more to this really. They were super slow to respond sometimes over 2 weeks. My permit ran out in March not January. Even if it was January, it doesn't matter really - I syarted discussions on January.
Does anyone have any useful advise for me?
You need to obtain the CoC from BMW to confirm the emissions data:
-
You have 2 x Notices to Owner @ £140 each?
You need to either pay them or submit representations challenging them. So £280.
Assuming you challenge and get rejected then you can appeal to the independent adjudicator. If you lose at adjudication then the bill will still be £280.
So if you are willing to put the effort in then I would have a go, you don't have a financial incentive to do otherwise.
And Harrow night also re-offer the discount reducing the bill to 2 x £70.
That said I don't hold out much hope with the adjudication. However anything can happen, Harrow might well mess up their own case.
My advice with very few exceptions is to always challenge PCNs, all the way. You'll win more often that you will lose. And don't worry you will be getting more and more of them to fight.
-
Or should I just pay them £280 and be done with it?
-
So at the end of all this messaging your conclusion is that I've just been a very naughty boy and I need to pay up and not bother the council? Just because I've not posted the conversations between myself and the council.
I'm not sure why things are so unclear for you, I've summarised it several times, there isn't really a need to post every email conversation, you just need to trust me - I tried to get a permit, it wasn't the correct price band so I asked them to please lower it, to which they said no. I tried lots of times and whilst doing so I got two tickets.
There isn't anything they said thst jumps out, they said it would be unfair to other residents if they lowered my tarrif without the proper certification from bmw. They refused the mot version of my emissions and also refused my like for like auto trader comparison.
Nothing more to this really. They were super slow to respond sometimes over 2 weeks. My permit ran out in March not January. Even if it was January, it doesn't matter really - I syarted discussions on January.
Does anyone have any useful advise for me?
-
An alternative view:
You held a permit for this car;
The permit carries an expiry date of 19 Jan 2025. You say it expired in March;
You tried to renew - we have no idea for how long this continued, but certainly beyond the notice period which they probably gave you and and 'grace' period after expiry - but did not like the rate offered...I'm certain this affects '000s of motorists annually;
You decided to continue to park in a res only bay while you argued the toss about tariff. We have not seen any of this correspondence and for all we know they wrote and said if you cannot prove your entitlement to a different council tariff then we will commence enforcement from **** if you have not secured alternative parking rights;
You were issued with PCNs which you have not paid;
The only council correspondence you've posted does not support your version of events 'Also we have no communication from the permit team to confirm there was issues with issuing your permit or they encountered any issues.';
You could have obtained alternative parking rights at a charge but you decided not to.
So, why would disagreeing with the council tariff be statutory grounds of appeal at adjudication?
-
The car shows as compliant on the TFL ULEZ checker (https://tfl.gov.uk/modes/driving/check-your-vehicle/) and also on the gov.uk Clean Air Zones checker (https://www.gov.uk/clean-air-zones).
The DVLA would have assigned an unissued VRM to the car consistent with the reported date of 1st registration in it's country of origin. In this case this is said to be September 2013. So it's been issued with a 63 series VRM. So some proof of that date was likely supplied with the registration application.
In order to determine compliance the ULEZ and CAZ checkers will first look at the VRM. If it's later than Jan 1st 2006, then for a petrol car then it will assume the car is compliant. This is because it would not have been legal to register a new petrol non-compliant (with Euro 4) car on or after the 1st Jan 2006. At least that is the case with a UK market car, which is not the scenario here.
It looks like the actual emissions are not further checked for possible compliance unless the car doesn't pass the VRM check.
So does that mean that the DVLA will ignore Euro compliance for a non UK/EU car when it gets re-registered in the UK?
Or is it the case that that evidence of emissions have to be provided with the registration application? The rules seem to be very opaque.
And it seems that the Single Vehicle Approval test can be waived where the car is more that 10 years old.
In any event surely the MOT test centre would have to test the car to the same emissions standards that apply to the equivalent domestic model. Not to mention that Japanese emissions standards will be at least as stringent as the UK/EU standards and may even be tougher.
I suggest you go back to the dealer who sold the car. Ask them about what information and documentation they supplied to the DVLA to register the car? And what happened to the emissions info?
-
OK will do thanks. Any tips on how to do the council appeal?
Well, I don't think I am qualified to suggest a draft representation, but I think you would need to outline the events which gave rise to the PCN being served, namely the council refusal to renew the permit at its existing rate. The statutory ground would be "the penalty exceed the relevant amount in the circumstances of the case"
In parallel to following the process, I think you need to get your local coucnillor involved, that's what they're there for, things like this !
Final question - is your car ULEZ-exempt ? If so then put this into your reps. It does seem Harrow officials are behaving in a somewhat bovine way. But I think closure will only come when you get an emissions rating applied to your car's record in the DVLA.
-
OK will do thanks. Any tips on how to do the council appeal?
-
Hi, yes everything you state in your first paragraph is exactly correct.
The car was registered by the dealer I purchased it from. A private small business import specialist. Obviously I had no clue about emissions data at the time. The car is petrol and is indeed ulez compliant.
So the tribunal thingie, do I appeal the £140 letter there or do I first appeal following instructions given on the letter - I believe I have 28 days for representation.
What do you suggest I do next?
Many thanks.
You have to submit representations to the council and get them rejected first, before you can register an appeal at London Tribunals.
-
Hi, yes everything you state in your first paragraph is exactly correct.
The car was registered by the dealer I purchased it from. A private small business import specialist. Obviously I had no clue about emissions data at the time. The car is petrol and is indeed ulez compliant.
So the tribunal thingie, do I appeal the £140 letter there or do I first appeal following instructions given on the letter - I believe I have 28 days for representation.
What do you suggest I do next?
Many thanks.
-
Thanks. Wjst is London tribunals? It's coming up to two years since I bought the car. He changed the speedo.
London Tribunals adjudicate PCN disputes, when the council (or Transport for London as well), reject representations, and the PCN recipient decides to have the matter put to adjudication. It is your absolute right in law to take the council to adjudication. My understanding is that you had a permit for the car, but when renewal came up, the council decided it was in a higher emissions rating and asked for a bigger permit fee, even though the expired permit was for the same car !
I had a look on 'CHeck VED' for your car, and it shows a value of 0 (zero) for CO2 emissions thus confirming the when the car was re-registered in the UK, no emissions value was entered. Who did the registration, you or the dealer ?
Built originally in 2013, and registered with DVLA February 2024 so if it's petrol then it is bound to be ULEZ compliant, but if diesel, very unlikely.
You might like to look at this website if you haven't already done so: -
https://carfueldata.vehicle-certification-agency.gov.uk/search-new-or-used-cars.aspx
-
Thanks. Wjst is London tribunals? It's coming up to two years since I bought the car. He changed the speedo.
-
Clearly with the council beiing obdurate and failing to engage, you should take them to London Tribunals. However, (and I don't like to say this, so sorry), but you're partly to blame in buying a re-imported vehicle without checking it's emissions rating. The car probably matches the same car sold in the UK, but you have to prove it. I suggest you go back to the dealer you bought the car from and confront him on the absence of emissions information. It is something all dealers in these re-imports should do, after all, they have to change the speedometer to be mph as the main scale.
-
Anyway I dokt think I have any angle other than what I've stated for which to appeal? The fact that they dragged their heels, I can't see any other ways to appeal, I was hoping to get some advice here...
-
My last message makes it very clear what happened. My last message also states what signage is present on my street.
-
No.
This is not as simple as you think it is. We need to fully understand what's happened here in order to give you the correct advice. The signage IS relevant!
-
I've just seen all the replies, thank you. The signage where I live is irrelevant here as I am a resident in a parking permit zone and there are signs at the beginning of the street saying something to the tune of "controlled parking zone" or suchlike. There are also other signs saying permit parking zone between 10am-2pm on the street.
This is the second year/cycle of having a permit on this imported car, a similar discussion happened the previous year which I can't fully remember but eventually I received a parking permit for the new car in 2024 which was a transitional permit from previous car to new car and it seemed somewhat amicable as they didn't really overcharge they just transfered to the new car.
So when this permit ran out, I believe in March this year, I began these new discussions about renewal after the website where one buys the permit defaulted to the highest payment bracket.
I get the technicalities that have been raised in terms of dates etc but it far simpler than is being made out here:
my permit ran out, I tried to renew online, I was shown a ridiculously high price, I attempted to discuss it with the council, they were very sporadic and dismissive in their responses and long drawn out response times, in the meantime I got 2 parking tickets. As replies were sometimes 2 weeks from the council I then just gave up and bought a permit at the higher price.
You are correct the expiry shows January but actually as it was a transitional permit it expired in March (it was a **** up in their part when I got the last licence and a duplicate one was made - very confusing...) so ran out March and I renewed in June. The discussions started in January and have gone on until I got the tickets and then bought a permit.
Does the above simplify matters?
-
So any tips? Was going for some advice
... Thanks in advance!
-
@stamfordman, I'm as confused as you.
The Res Permit on show expired in Jan. 2025. It's in the vehicle in question, therefore it's reasonable to conclude that the OP had knowledge of and paid the prevailing permit tariff before 2025.
But they're saying here that they didn't buy a Res Permit until June 2025.
Anyway, OP your whole argument regarding the issue of 2 PCNs seems to be that you had tried to acquire a Res Permit soon after purchasing the car but were thwarted because of issues regarding the applicable tariff. As pointed out by others, you had options available to you to park legally which did not involve holding a permanent res permit, therefore even if correct it would not be a defence which would succeed at adjudication.
But as you held one in Jan. 2025, implicitly 2024, for exactly the same vehicle with the same emissions -therefore long before these PCNs- this rather undermines your argument.
I can't square the circle of conflicting evidence without your input.
And we need to see photos of the traffic signs where you park.
-
If the permit is not backdated then the OP hasn't paid for a permit for about 6 months so that's factor, that is if they've had a car throughout.
May be best to try and pay one at discount and ask for discretion on the second.
-
The OP posted:
Anyway, as this [the ping-pong correspondence with the council] went in for several weeks, and with very sporadic replies to countless emails I sent, in the meantime I received two parking fines for parking outside my own home without a valid parking permit!
I appealed them but they were dismissed. I then bought the more expensive permit[after 3 June]
But they were displaying a Res Permit in the vehicle in June(PCN **0681) which expired in Jan!
-
Is the permit you bought backdated to cover the days of the PCNs.
Have you got anywhere wit reducing the permit cost.
-
I got the car from a private dealer. It had no UK registration as it was from Japan and after registering it I had no emissions info connected to the car...
Looks like this is your problem. The dealers who specialise in these imports usually make sure they get the emissions stuff done. I'm a Jaguar enthusiast and often see XJ saloons for sale from Japan, with the emissions rating given. If they didn't do this, they'd not be able to sell any cars in London.
Have you tried BMW UK ?
-
OP, pl just slow down.
I am finding this account difficult.
The record of PCNs for RF63ZNE shows:
HR77160681 - 03/06/2025 - £140.00
HR76979057 - 07/05/2025 - PCN on hold
0681 shows a Res Permit for your VRM which expired on 19 Jan 2025.
We're not getting the full story.
I purchased RF63ZNE on ***** after which I parked this outside my house using **** parking rights.
Neither GSV nor the council photos show the traffic sign which applies.
Can we get back to basic facts pl.
-
I got the car from a private dealer. It had no UK registration as it was from Japan and after registering it I had no emissions info connected to the car...
-
Checking your car registration on the PCN shows it as a BMW 320, so this would have been exported to Japan, who drive on the left like us, and then, presumably, it has been imported to the UK from Japan. The process to import would also have to include the importer obtaining the relevant emissions data so that the vehicle can be correctly placed for the VED level. Where did you obtain this car from ?
-
So any tips on how to go about this appeal?
-
All that is at risk at adjudication is the PCN penalty (£140). There are no other costs, and no possibility of a CCJ.
-
Hi, I wondered if someone could advise on the process and any tips and tricks when making this final appeal? From what is written above do I have a case to at least try my luck? Also if I lose are there any implications or do I still pay £140 and that's the end of it?
Any input gratefully received.
-
Yes that is correct - administrative grounds, I am after all a resident of the council and issues should be sorted when they arise. It is a fact that my parking permit needed renewing and had run out, it is the second year that this dispute has been running. The last time exactly the same thing happened and they cancelled two parking tickets once I had purchased a permit.
I definitely want to contest this out of principle and because I provided what I feel is legitimate proof that my cars Emissions fall into the lower bracket. If I'd bought the permit at the high price I had zero faith that they would have refundede the difference once I'd provided proof since they dismissed the proof I'd already sent them. I also feel that paying £250 for a form frpm bmw is totally unfair.
And yes, I wrongly believed /hoped that enforcement would be on hold whilst this discussion was taking place.
-
Our resident parking permit here in Hackney is £455...
Did you or they mention a temporary permit as that seems to be the obvious interim solution.
As it stands you are trying to get them to cancel on administrative grounds not that the contraventions didn't occur, and the tribunal can't apply mitigation although it can allow an appeal if the council didn't follow its policy in dealing with this and/or you were led to believe enforcement was on hold while the permit was sorted.
-
Yes I take your point but thays not always the obvious thing to do when you're normally used to paying £75 and suddenly being asked for £150. As a matter of principle one tends to object and ask for the council to reconsider based on the objections. As one of their own residents and council tax payers one would expect thst as a minimum, I'm my opinion.
And when I sent them proof of a like for like car model clearly showing emissions on the lower bracket their arguments for not accepting thst were really poor - saying the format needs to come from an official source otherwise it would be unfair on other residents and would set a president.
Normally the council issue temporary permits whilst conversations are taking place.
Their response to my appeal says there were no emails which baffles me and tells me there are grounds for dismissal. Thank you for your help uts greatly appreciated.
-
The problem as I see it is you should have bought a permit at the higher rate and then established a lower rate and a refund.
But let's all the materials and timings.
-
Can anyone help with my appeal? Isnit pretty straight forward? Or are there any tips and tricks?
No it's not straightforward, I'm afraid. And as this is the Bank Holiday weekend, you'll probably not get much until Tuesday next week. We'll have to read all the documents to see what the score is, until then, enjoy your bank holiday.
Edit
Please post the emails, and any other info, incl the make and model of the car.
-
Can anyone help with my appeal? Isnit pretty straight forward? Or are there any tips and tricks?
-
I have added the reply I got to y appeal (appeal was exactly as above) as well as the notice to owner.
To Clarify I wanted to buy a new parking permit after purchasing a Japanese imported car thst didn't have emissions data on file. The Harrow Council website immediately. Defaulted to a ridiculously high bracket because of this.
Both appeals were exactly the same and both reply letters from the council were exactly the same.
As you can see they completely deny there was any issue with my permit nor any discussions ongoing. I have all the email threads so that's a complete lie. I assumed the formal representation means I can go to court and show the judge the emails showing how dismissive and slow to respond they were. That is not "putting residents first" on my view. I got ticketed outside my own home! And I've held a permit for many years.
-
Beaten to this by Incandescent.
Pl post(using external site) at least one PCN(if they're for the same contravention at the same location), both sides, your challenge, their rejection and a NTO. GSV to the exact location would be useful.
Also, pl explain: 'I bought a Japanese imported car and when it came to renewing my parking permit'.
Do you mean 'when it came to getting a permit', after all you weren't renewing for the Japanese car?
-
Sorry, no good without some hard info. So please read this and update your thread accordingly.
https://www.ftla.uk/civil-penalty-charge-notices-(councils-tfl-and-so-on)/read-this-first-before-posting-your-case!-this-section-is-for-council-tfl-dartme/
It sounds like you have the Notice to Owner for each PCN. You must respond to these, or it's game over. Just submit your original reps again, but updated with our help. There is no "court"; appeals are dealt with at London Tribunals.
-
Hi, advice needed... I bought a Japanese imported car. When I tried to get a parking permit for it - since permits are priced according to emissions, my car didn't have any emissions info, therefore the council (Harrow) defaulted to the most expensive bracket.
I disputed this as being unfair and sent like for like comparisons of my car from auto trader proving the emissions were lower, as well as recent mot certificate with emissions info - they claimed the format was wrong.
As this was in discussion, Harrow Council were responding every 2 weeks to emails, always dismissive and using the argument that if they changed the bracket for me it would be unfair on other residents, somehow. At one point they offered to sell me a permit slightly lower but not at the correct rate and told me I'd need to contact bmw for an official emissions report (£250) which somewhat defeats the purpose of the argument.
Anyway, as this went in for several weeks, and with very sporadic replies to countless emails I sent, in the meantime I received two parking fines for parking outside my own home without a valid parking permit!
I appealed them but they were dismissed. I then bought the more expensive permit to cut the discussion short as I didn't want more fines, I wasn't getting anywhere and they weren't replying at all at this point. I tried calling also but that didn't work.
On principle I now want to go to court and fight these two tickets, I have all the emails showing how slow they were to reply and how they didn't give me a temporary permit whilst we were clearly in the midst of discussing my predicament.
I have received the 28 days double fee £140 letter now stating I can do a representation on grounds that I feel are compelling.
Any assistance on the above would be gratefully received, thank you!