Free Traffic Legal Advice
Live cases legal advice => Speeding and other criminal offences => Topic started by: Dr Tripwire on June 27, 2025, 07:54:01 am
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The O/P says he would have been driving a caravan and I presume the road was either a dual carriageway or a motorway. In either case there are speed limits which I believe is 60MPH.
As the OP was driving a campervan then depending on the weight, the speed limit for it on a motorway or dual carriageway could well have been 70mph.
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I can't see a post where the police have actually refused to share dash cam imagery.
The police have no idea whether the OP has a dash cam, why would they make something like this up and take the risk?
The OP has not stated he was elsewhere at the time. He seems to know the location it happened. Why could it be a plate misread?
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I was about to post this yesterday but had a problem with my internet.
There is something that doesn’t sit right with me.
The O/P says he would have been driving a caravan and I presume the road was either a dual carriageway or a motorway. In either case there are speed limits which I believe is 60MPH.
Unless the police car was driving very slowly, he’d have to do some speed to approach him very fast.
What would be the reason the police would refuse to show any dash cam evidence, I know they’re not obliged to but it cant be that difficult or time consuming to send it.
For all we know it could have been a plate misread.
I understand that the O/P is going to take the course, My blood would be boiling as well.
I’m getting the impression that Police can report just about anyone knowing that the chance of it getting to court are slim and its therefore win-win for the Police
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My first thought, was the police vehicle hogging the middle lane. My second thought, was probably not because you moved back into the second lane because there was another vehicle in lane 1, which means the police vehicle had the right to be in that lane, as he was presumably overtaking a vehicle in lane 1.
Unfortunately, even if the police vehicle is in the wrong, it is not a get out for yourself. However, what I have said may refresh your memory as to what happended.
I would think very seriously about what you are going to do. Be totally honest to yourself and you will come up with the right decision
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"...and am going to opt for the course"
I think that's a wise decision. It may make your blood boil but it will almost certainly save you a shedload of cash.
I am not at all convinced that the police will enter into any further discussion with you over this. They have no reason to.
The advice from the "chatbot" to raise an SAR is incorrect. You can raise one but, as above, the police are not obliged to comply with such a request if it involves potential criminal proceedings.
Thanks for letting us know what you have decided.
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I didn't think you could make a subject access request in respect of prospective criminal proceedings? (If you think about it it's fairly obvious why)
Where in Norfolk did this alleged offence occur? (I live there so I'm curious what stretch of road it is)
I suppose you will just have to wait until you here back from them. But I suspect that before they reply you will have passed the deadline for accepting a course or a fixed penalty and points. You will probably have to decide on a course of action before you get theri reply - if they reply at all.
That's what was advised so I've followed the suggestion...
That all said, I thought about what you said about the response from the police probably not coming before the deadline, meaning I'll incur court costs unless I choose the course or fixed penalty and am going to opt for the course (begrudgingly) and I'll be fitting dash cams imminently.
This all took place somewhere around the Orwell Bridge in Ipswich (I know the correspondence says Norwich but it's actually Norfolk and Suffolk constabulary Central Ticket Office who is the point of contact.
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.......this has boiled my blood and has become a point of principal
Sounds expensive.
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I suspect that the officer involved hasn’t produced a witness statement yet (they are often only prepared from notes if the case goes to court) so what the OP has been provided with may be the briefest of summaries of what the officer says happened.
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There are some things that can constitute careless driving, and some that invariably will constitute careless driving. Those that can tend to be careless when done without adequate care. Those that will tend to be considered careless in any circumstances.
As part of the IAM advanced motorcycle test, riders are expected to filter through traffic carefully when appropriate. Filtering is both undertaking and overtaking at the same time. The whole IAM thing is based on Roadcraft - the police advanced driving manual (albeit translated into English) - so if anything, the expected disciplines are higher than the standard expected of the average careful and competent rider.
Obviously, that does not mean that a driver undertaking a police car in a campervan is a better driver than the driver of the police car, or that undertaking would never constitute careless driving, but it does appear to call into question any assertion that undertaking invariably constitutes careless driving.
edit: As some may be aware, I am not a fan of undue brevity, and therefore perhaps not best placed to read between the single line of those who for some reason are, but if I were to briefly describe an incident involving a f*ck off great 3 tonne campervan bearing down on me at great speed, swerving into the inside lane, undertaking me, and then cutting me up swerving back into lane 2 in front of me, I think that I would use a more descriptive term than "vehicle bearing the VRM #########" to describe said campervan. That said, if I had contributed to the incident by cutting up the campervan in the first instance, then I might be inclined to omit as much detail as possible.
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I didn't think you could make a subject access request in respect of prospective criminal proceedings? (If you think about it it's fairly obvious why)
Where in Norfolk did this alleged offence occur? (I live there so I'm curious what stretch of road it is)
I suppose you will just have to wait until you here back from them. But I suspect that before they reply you will have passed the deadline for accepting a course or a fixed penalty and points. You will probably have to decide on a course of action before you get theri reply - if they reply at all.
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I think the undertaking topic is (to a certain degree) a moot point as it is not officially an offence from my understanding - unless it has been done in a way that suggests driving without due care and attention - again...I'm not saying that I didn't undertake, I just don't remember. However, how the incident has been described simply doesn't describe my driving style - especially the before and after the alleged undertake.
You're right, but you haven't been charged with "undertaking" (slang for overtaking on the left). The charge is careless driving, which is defined as driving which "falls below what would be expected of a competent and careful driver."
Overtaking on the left is forbidden in the Highway Code, which arguably is the minimum standard "expected of a competent and careful driver".
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... To reiterate, my post is not about me being guilty or innocent - I have enough of a moral grounding to admit my wrongdoings if that is indeed the case - at this moment, I do not consider that what little evidence has been provided is enough to verify that the offence took place and would like more.
It may have been a case of me driving as they have claimed, I find it hard to believe but maybe I did commit the offence that they have stated but for whatever reason, I have no recollection of it. If I am provided further evidence (video evidence) that clearly shows me driving without due care and attention, I won't be making any efforts to try and convince anyone otherwise - however I am not willing to pay a fine, receive penalty points etc on the basis of the information I have so far.
As others have already said, you aren't legally entitled to see any evidence against you until you've actually been charged, and you haven't been charged yet. Once you are charged the options of a course or conditional offer of a fixed penalty will be off the table and you are headed to court. If you lose at court it will be much more expensive for you than what is currently on offer.
If when you get to court they provide video evidence of you committing the offence as charged, you will have fought and lost an expensive battle on a (misguided?) point of principle.
Your choice.
[Having said that, I'm aware from one of your later posts that the constabulary in question appears to invite requests for further evidence on traffic offences - so who knows. Maybe they'll let you see the evidence and you'll be in a better position to decide]
@ManxTom
No - the attachments are
1) a discussion with an online agent through their live chat system - (https://www.norfolk.police.uk/rqo/request/ri/request-information/) - you'll see in the chat (screenshot) that I asked how I can get information relating to the driving offence and they advised me to raise a Subject Access Request
2) the request I raised for evidence to be provided
The series of events was that I received the NIP, completed the form that was included to confirm that I was the driver at the time of the alleged offence. A few days later, I received the conditional offer of a fixed penalty / driver retraining course offer - they didn't invite me to request further information, I took it upon myself to seek further information.
You're right about one thing though - this has boiled my blood and has become a point of principal - I've been tempted to just give in a pay the fine/attend a course but then, should I go around and hand out cash to strangers in the street too? Because that's what this feels like (in some respects)...all said and done, I'd really like to weigh up my options but I will consider the sensible option of paying off the mafia (through gritted teeth)
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... To reiterate, my post is not about me being guilty or innocent - I have enough of a moral grounding to admit my wrongdoings if that is indeed the case - at this moment, I do not consider that what little evidence has been provided is enough to verify that the offence took place and would like more.
It may have been a case of me driving as they have claimed, I find it hard to believe but maybe I did commit the offence that they have stated but for whatever reason, I have no recollection of it. If I am provided further evidence (video evidence) that clearly shows me driving without due care and attention, I won't be making any efforts to try and convince anyone otherwise - however I am not willing to pay a fine, receive penalty points etc on the basis of the information I have so far.
As others have already said, you aren't legally entitled to see any evidence against you until you've actually been charged, and you haven't been charged yet. Once you are charged the options of a course or conditional offer of a fixed penalty will be off the table and you are headed to court. If you lose at court it will be much more expensive for you than what is currently on offer.
If when you get to court they provide video evidence of you committing the offence as charged, you will have fought and lost an expensive battle on a (misguided?) point of principle.
Your choice.
[Having said that, I'm aware from one of your later posts that the constabulary in question appears to invite requests for further evidence on traffic offences - so who knows. Maybe they'll let you see the evidence and you'll be in a better position to decide]
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I've put in a request for information as directed by one of their agents -
EDIT: Sorry if you saw my earlier answer asking what you want. I missed your attachment.
How do you know this evidence exists?
I doubt very much whether the police will comply with your request even if it does. Video evidence is notoriously difficult to secure even in the event of a trial.
To gather this evidence will cost the police time and money and the idea of a fixed penalty is that it saves them and you both of those.
I wish you luck but I believe your request will fall on deaf ears. But do let us know what happens so that we can advise others.
No problem - I don't know if the (video) evidence exists - I only assume that it does and hope that they would provide it to me. That said, re-reading the statement, I cannot see how the sparse information that has been provided would be enough to lead to prosecution - only under circumstances where a vehicle has moved into a lane that I'm already in would I have been likely to have approached it at a higher speed than it was travelling. Additionally, I'm particularly careful when driving my campervan - as mentioned, it's 3+ tonnes and doesn't slow down as efficiently as a normal car due to it's mass - I'm aware of things like this enough so to not drive in a way that would increase the potential for an accident. Furthermore, while my dog is secured in a harness that connects to the seatbelt, I absolutely wouldn't want any harm to come to him - so extra caution is applied when he is in a vehicle with me.
There's also a lack of clarity around the undertaking statement - did I undertake or didn't I? It doesn't say either way. Did I move back into lane 2 leaving very little distance between my vehicle and the police vehicle - me being in front or behind it? If I did undertake, I would want to see the speed that the police vehicle was doing at the time of the undertaking and my moving back into lane 2 (IF I did undertake and move back into lane 2) as I wouldn't have done so leaving insufficient space between the 2 vehicles - there is a potential for the police vehicle to have sped up after I had undertaken - resulting in my not leaving a safe distance between vehicles.
I think the undertaking topic is (to a certain degree) a moot point as it is not officially an offence from my understanding - unless it has been done in a way that suggests driving without due care and attention - again...I'm not saying that I didn't undertake, I just don't remember. However, how the incident has been described simply doesn't describe my driving style - especially the before and after the alleged undertake.
I'll certainly update once I know more - I'll also write to the address that I have in the correspondence as a back up to the online request that I've made.
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@Dr Tripwire - so this is from Norfolk & Suffolk Constabularies and they actually invite you to ask for evidence after you've recieved the options letter?
My understanding is that that is very unusual, but Norfolk & Suffolk are also unususal in that they allow you to nominate yourself online - most constabularies insist on return of the signed paper nomination if you name yourself.
[Edited so it now makes sense!]
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I've put in a request for information as directed by one of their agents -
EDIT: Sorry if you saw my earlier answer asking what you want. I missed your attachment.
How do you know this evidence exists?
I doubt very much whether the police will comply with your request even if it does. Video evidence is notoriously difficult to secure even in the event of a trial.
To gather this evidence will cost the police time and money and the idea of a fixed penalty is that it saves them and you both of those.
I wish you luck but I believe your request will fall on deaf ears. But do let us know what happens so that we can advise others.
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Is an officer's written statement of events considered as adequate evidence for a driving offence? It would be surprising to hear that this is all that it takes, given that in this day and age, police vehicles will most certainly have dashcams fitted and could provide video evidence.
If you wish to challenge the officer's statement, he can be cross-examined in court. You can give your version of events. The court then decides.
However, that may not arise. As you say, they may well have video.
I've put in a request for information as directed by one of their agents -
[attachment deleted by admin]
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...In this case, the vehicle displaying registration mark ###### was found to fast approach a police vehicle travelling in Lane 2. When very close to the rear of the police vehicle, the subject vehicle then moved into Lane 1 to undertake, before quickly cutting back into Lane 2 without leaving a safe distance between themselves and the police vehicle.
Additional information - I was in a campervan which I don't drive any faster than 60mph where permitted, I had my dog asleep by my side and had left home with ample time to get to my destination - the offence described just doesn't sound like something I would have done, especially as I am aware of the stopping abilities of my 3 ton vehicle and I would assume that the vehicle in question was an unmarked police car.
Does this sound like something you would have done?
If you are convinced that you would never drive like that you might want to consider 'phoning them and politely asking what evidence they have. If they have photographic or video evidence you could ask them if they could confirm whether the vehicle matches your camper van. It could be a mis-read number plate or clone. Or it might be your camper van.
[Edit: As others have already explained you aren't entitled to see any evidence at this stage, but that doesn't stop you asking if they could help you]
If there is no video or photographic evidence it will be your word against one or two police officers.
Before you 'phone them see what others here advise. There is a risk that if you do 'phone them they will interpret it as a challenge against the allegation and you'll end up at trial anyway.
I would be the first to admit it if there was a chance of me doing this - the only thing that comes to mind is that either the vehicle in question moved into lane 2 without seeing that I was already in lane 2 and travelling faster than it and as a result I moved into lane 1 - what is not clear from the information provided is whether I did actually undertake or not In this case, the vehicle displaying registration mark ###### was found to fast approach a police vehicle travelling in Lane 2. When very close to the rear of the police vehicle, the subject vehicle then moved into Lane 1 to undertake, before quickly cutting back into Lane 2 without leaving a safe distance between themselves and the police vehicle..
I genuinely don't recall this supposed event - if it happened, I haven't remembered it happening and would accept that fault and whatever penalty is applied.
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Is an officer's written statement of events considered as adequate evidence for a driving offence?
Yes. Whether it is sufficient so that he Magistrates can be sure that the offence was committed is for them to decide.
You can debate this all you like but the truth of the matter is that you will not be provided with any formal evidence unless the matter goes to court. Then you will be provided with the evidence the police intend to rely on to convict you. If they do not intend to rely on video evidence (assuming there is any, which is by no means a given) it will not be provided.
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Is an officer's written statement of events considered as adequate evidence for a driving offence? It would be surprising to hear that this is all that it takes, given that in this day and age, police vehicles will most certainly have dashcams fitted and could provide video evidence.
If you wish to challenge the officer's statement, he can be cross-examined in court. You can give your version of events. The court then decides.
However, that may not arise. As you say, they may well have video.
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If you freely admit you would routinely undertake a vehicle travelling slower than you, you probably did it.
Can you point out where the OP freely admitted to routinely undertaking other vehicles? I seem to have missed that bit.
“the offence described just doesn't sound like something I would have done, especially as I am aware of the stopping abilities of my 3 ton vehicle and I would assume that the vehicle in question was an unmarked police car.”
Maybe freely admit is a bit of a stretch but the op didn’t say they didn’t undertake. I read this as the OP saying it must have been an unmarked car as they would remember undertaking a police car and due to the size of their vehicle they wouldn’t leave it too late ti change lanes.
Of course they could have been saying they never undertake as they always drive as if every other vehicle on the road is an unmarked cop car.
Either way unless the OP now thinks it’s a case of mistaken identity that they can clear up before it gets to court (ie it wasn’t their van at that location at that time) it will probably be cheaper to do the course.
I think you're making a few too many assumptions here - my post is not about admitting or denying any offence - it's about the possibilities of getting what I would call "Proper evidence" - not just a vague 2 sentence explanation that doesn't provide enough information.
My remark about it being an unmarked police car simply means that had I approached a marked police vehicle at speed, I would have very clearly seen it and remembered doing it - more to the point, if anyone decides to approach a marked police vehicle from the rear (or otherwise) at speed, they deserve what they get.
Also there's no mention of mistaken identity in my post???
To reiterate, my post is not about me being guilty or innocent - I have enough of a moral grounding to admit my wrongdoings if that is indeed the case - at this moment, I do not consider that what little evidence has been provided is enough to verify that the offence took place and would like more.
It may have been a case of me driving as they have claimed, I find it hard to believe but maybe I did commit the offence that they have stated but for whatever reason, I have no recollection of it. If I am provided further evidence (video evidence) that clearly shows me driving without due care and attention, I won't be making any efforts to try and convince anyone otherwise - however I am not willing to pay a fine, receive penalty points etc on the basis of the information I have so far.
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it seems to me that I am being asked to pay for something that I don't think I did and that the only way I can see evidence of the alleged offence is to take my case to trial
You don' have to take it to trial. If you see the evidence and accept he allegation, you can plead guilty. But by then the option of a course or fixed penalty will no longer be available. The evidence is unlikely to be much more than a statement from the officer explaining what you have summarised.
It seems they've told you what you have allegedly done. The ball is in your court. You either accept any offer they may make or have the matter dealt with in court.
Is an officer's written statement of events considered as adequate evidence for a driving offence? It would be surprising to hear that this is all that it takes, given that in this day and age, police vehicles will most certainly have dashcams fitted and could provide video evidence.
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...In this case, the vehicle displaying registration mark ###### was found to fast approach a police vehicle travelling in Lane 2. When very close to the rear of the police vehicle, the subject vehicle then moved into Lane 1 to undertake, before quickly cutting back into Lane 2 without leaving a safe distance between themselves and the police vehicle.
Additional information - I was in a campervan which I don't drive any faster than 60mph where permitted, I had my dog asleep by my side and had left home with ample time to get to my destination - the offence described just doesn't sound like something I would have done, especially as I am aware of the stopping abilities of my 3 ton vehicle and I would assume that the vehicle in question was an unmarked police car.
Does this sound like something you would have done?
If you are convinced that you would never drive like that you might want to consider 'phoning them and politely asking what evidence they have. If they have photographic or video evidence you could ask them if they could confirm whether the vehicle matches your camper van. It could be a mis-read number plate or clone. Or it might be your camper van.
[Edit: As others have already explained you aren't entitled to see any evidence at this stage, but that doesn't stop you asking if they could help you]
If there is no video or photographic evidence it will be your word against one or two police officers.
Before you 'phone them see what others here advise. There is a risk that if you do 'phone them they will interpret it as a challenge against the allegation and you'll end up at trial anyway.
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I guess the question is, regardless of whether you felt it was safe or non aggressive did you move into lane 1 to undertake a vehicle and then move back into lane 2 in front of them? The line for DWDCA is fairly easy to cross and it will be the word of an officer against yours.
If you were to ask me if I did it, my answer is that to the best of my recollection I didn't do it. Hence wanting to see some form of evidence - the fact that the police cannot prosecute without evidence would suggest that they have dashcam footage they can provide.
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I guess the question is, regardless of whether you felt it was safe or non aggressive did you move into lane 1 to undertake a vehicle and then move back into lane 2 in front of them? The line for DWDCA is fairly easy to cross and it will be the word of an officer against yours.
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it seems to me that I am being asked to pay for something that I don't think I did and that the only way I can see evidence of the alleged offence is to take my case to trial
You don' have to take it to trial. If you see the evidence and accept he allegation, you can plead guilty. But by then the option of a course or fixed penalty will no longer be available. The evidence is unlikely to be much more than a statement from the officer explaining what you have summarised.
It seems they've told you what you have allegedly done. The ball is in your court. You either accept any offer they may make or have the matter dealt with in court.
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The only sure way to be provided with evidence is to opt for a court hearing. Then you will be provided with the evidence the police intend to rely on to convict you. The police have no obligation to provide any evidence if you want to accept one of the other two options, and usually won't. You can ask them if they will give you an idea of what you are said to have done, but that's about it.
I don't know whether the police really have used the term "appeal" but at present you have nothing to appeal against. If you opt for court you can either plead guilty (if you accept their evidence) or not guilty (and face a trial).
Even if you plead guilty in court, the cost will be around three times (as a minimum) the cost of either the course or fixed penalty. If you are found guilty following a trial you will see no change out of £1,000.
Have you any idea what this might be about?
As an aside, PCNs are not used for speeding or careless driving offences.
Thanks - I understand that there would be no need for evidence of the alleged offence if I am admitting to it - it seems to me that I am being asked to pay for something that I don't think I did and that the only way I can see evidence of the alleged offence is to take my case to trial (not appeal - apologies), during which time I will have forgone the right to accept the allegation and will then be faced with court costs. It seems to me that I am being held over a barrel!
With regard to the information I have been provided so far, this is the redacted version -
With reference to the enclosed Notice of Intended Prosecution/s. 172, a Police Officer has determined that the offence of Drive a mechanically propelled vehicle on a road/ in a public place without due care and attention has been evidenced.
In this case, the vehicle displaying registration mark ###### was found to fast approach a police vehicle travelling in Lane 2. When very close to the rear of the police vehicle, the subject vehicle then moved into Lane 1 to undertake, before quickly cutting back into Lane 2 without leaving a safe distance between themselves and the police vehicle.
Additional information - I was in a campervan which I don't drive any faster than 60mph where permitted, I had my dog asleep by my side and had left home with ample time to get to my destination - the offence described just doesn't sound like something I would have done, especially as I am aware of the stopping abilities of my 3 ton vehicle and I would assume that the vehicle in question was an unmarked police car.
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Am I entitled to evidence before I make my decision to take this to appeal?
Short answer, no. You can ask, but the police are not obliged to provide evidence at this stage, and probably won't.
BTW you won't be "taking it to appeal": there's nothing to appeal against (yet). You'll be taking it to trial.
Hi thanks for your reply - apologies, yes I meant taking it to trial.
What doesn't make sense to me is that in order for me to admit anything, I need to see proof of the allegation because as it stands, I truly do not recall anything like what has been alleged happening.
I understand that if I were to accept one of the first two options, there would be no need to see evidence of the offence taking place but surely it is a reasonable request to ask for evidence before I do so?
So far as "reasonable" is concerned, we don't make the laws! FWIW, the whole point of the fixed penalty system is to dispose of offences without either side incurring the hassle and expense of a court hearing. It's not designed to accommodate enquiries, discussions, arguments etc.
As NewJudge has suggested "you can ask them if they will give you an idea of what you are said to have done, but that's about it.", so a polite phone call along those lines may help.
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Am I entitled to evidence before I make my decision to take this to appeal?
Short answer, no. You can ask, but the police are not obliged to provide evidence at this stage, and probably won't.
BTW you won't be "taking it to appeal": there's nothing to appeal against (yet). You'll be taking it to trial.
Hi thanks for your reply - apologies, yes I meant taking it to trial.
What doesn't make sense to me is that in order for me to admit anything, I need to see proof of the allegation because as it stands, I truly do not recall anything like what has been alleged happening.
I understand that if I were to accept one of the first two options, there would be no need to see evidence of the offence taking place but surely it is a reasonable request to ask for evidence before I do so?
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The only sure way to be provided with evidence is to opt for a court hearing. Then you will be provided with the evidence the police intend to rely on to convict you. The police have no obligation to provide any evidence if you want to accept one of the other two options, and usually won't. You can ask them if they will give you an idea of what you are said to have done, but that's about it.
I don't know whether the police really have used the term "appeal" but at present you have nothing to appeal against. If you opt for court you can either plead guilty (if you accept their evidence) or not guilty (and face a trial).
Even if you plead guilty in court, the cost will be around three times (as a minimum) the cost of either the course or fixed penalty. If you are found guilty following a trial you will see no change out of £1,000.
Have you any idea what this might be about?
As an aside, PCNs are not used for speeding or careless driving offences.
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Am I entitled to evidence before I make my decision to take this to appeal?
Short answer, no. You can ask, but the police are not obliged to provide evidence at this stage, and probably won't.
BTW you won't be "taking it to appeal": there's nothing to appeal against (yet). You'll be taking it to trial.
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Hi
I recently received a PCN for driving without due care and attention.
While in the past, I have inadvertently driven above the speed limit and received a PCN and have put my hands up to the offence, in this case I genuinely do not believe the claim by the police that I drove without due care and attention, therefore I don't accept the allegation.
I have sent back the form that asks if I was the driver of the vehicle at the time of the alleged offence to confirm that I was.
Subsequently, I received a letter giving me three options:
Attend a "driver awareness"course
Pay a fine of £100 and accept 3 points on my licence
Appeal the allegation through the magistrates court
Before I respond to this letter, making my choice, I would like to see video evidence of the alleged offence as I've not been provided anything (unlike with speeding offences where you're given a link to view the photo that the camera captured).
What is the best course of action to take in this instance? I don't want to accept liability for something I don't think I've done and certainly not without proof.
I also don't want to appeal this through court without having proof provided prior to the appeal.
Am I entitled to evidence before I make my decision to take this to appeal?
Thanks in advance.