Free Traffic Legal Advice

Live cases legal advice => Civil penalty charge notices (Councils, TFL and so on) => Topic started by: Martyn21uk on October 09, 2023, 03:04:18 pm

Title: Re: Bromley Code 34J Being in a Bus Lane, Widmore Road
Post by: Hippocrates on April 04, 2024, 11:25:02 am
Grounds for the application

1. From the outset, Mr ***** raised the issue of camera certification and authorisation which was intransigently resisted by the council.
2. The council were fully aware that they, the council, did not possess a valid certificate until they applied for one on 9th August 2023. Yet, they persisted in relying solely upon their manufacturer’s certificate, the terms of which are abundantly clear.
3. The council only adduced as evidence the said manufacturer’s certificate and I say this is wholly unreasonable.
4. The evidence clearly shows that Bromley were one of two councils who were rather tardy in applying for their certificate which they knew post-dated the alleged contravention. Yet, they still resisted Mr ****’s valid issues raised, resulting in far too copious and unnecessary correspondence throughout the unnecessarily prolonged  statutory process.

In light of the above, I consider that the council’s conduct in its pursuit of this case to be wholly unreasonable. I enclose Mr ****'s Witness Statement vis a vis costs post the Notice of Rejection which I consider to be wholly fair and  reasonable under the circumstances.

I also said it was arguable that the provision of just the manufacturer's certificate, but not the council's certificate, was disingenuous. (Pronounced incorrectly as per my Celtic tendency!)  At least I am not as garrulous as I used to be.  ;)

Decision to follow.

Mountain climber do say: To win an appeal is like climbing Mt. Everest. To win costs is like climbing said mountain without oxygen equipment.   But, yesterday, we ran up and down in about 5 minutes!
Title: Re: Bromley Code 34J Being in a Bus Lane, Widmore Road
Post by: Hippocrates on April 03, 2024, 12:23:29 pm
Costs allowed. A walk in the park.
Title: Re: Bromley Code 34J Being in a Bus Lane, Widmore Road
Post by: Hippocrates on April 03, 2024, 09:05:52 am
@cp8759 @Martyn21uk

Well, after not bothering to attend yesterday in another case, they have no comment to make re this application.  ;)
Title: Re: Bromley Code 34J Being in a Bus Lane, Widmore Road
Post by: Hippocrates on February 12, 2024, 12:44:30 pm
Let's get on with the costs, Marve!
Title: Re: Bromley Code 34J Being in a Bus Lane, Widmore Road
Post by: Martyn21uk on February 12, 2024, 09:32:15 am
Quote from: Hippocrates on February 11, 2024, 02:46:30 pm
Sorry for the late post:  DNCed.  Costs application to follow.

Thanks for all of your help Hippocrates!
 

(https://i.imgur.com/cQ6Xihf.jpeg)
Title: Re: Bromley Code 34J Being in a Bus Lane, Widmore Road
Post by: Hippocrates on February 11, 2024, 02:46:30 pm
Sorry for the late post:  DNCed.  Costs application to follow.
Title: Re: Bromley Code 34J Being in a Bus Lane, Widmore Road
Post by: Hippocrates on January 24, 2024, 06:28:15 pm
Indeed.  And I have driven past the pass several times:  Thermopylae. I got quite emotional when I was there.  Same applies to Delphi when I see The Charioteer and the marble columns with the ancient Greek musical notation.

Anyways, I have joined your club. "Hero" by Carey.

No shame, Tommy's first outing:  https://youtu.be/s0zaVJmjDfc

I know, Mr Mustard:  totally bonkers! But, the point had been made!
Title: Re: Bromley Code 34J Being in a Bus Lane, Widmore Road
Post by: Incandescent on January 24, 2024, 06:12:57 pm
Quote from: Hippocrates on January 24, 2024, 05:58:04 pm
And that is what they have filed!  Molon lave.
Clearly you have had a classical education !
Title: Re: Bromley Code 34J Being in a Bus Lane, Widmore Road
Post by: Hippocrates on January 24, 2024, 05:58:04 pm
And that is what they have filed!  Molon lave.
Title: Re: Bromley Code 34J Being in a Bus Lane, Widmore Road
Post by: Hippocrates on January 21, 2024, 11:52:24 am
Quote from: Martyn21uk on October 09, 2023, 03:07:30 pm
Fast forward to last Friday

So Bromley have rejected my appeal as per the below.

Unbeknownst to me, they submitted a FOI request on my behalf which generated some unsolicited emails from "One Trust". I attach the responses from that as well. The link referred to in the PDF is https://tinyurl.com/bdcur7z3

Views welcomed!

(https://i.imgur.com/JACt6fv.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/bh4xaoj.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/bNDASb7.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/PzVGcqw.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/wj81QTz.jpg)

That is a manufacturer's certificate only.
Title: Re: Bromley Code 34J Being in a Bus Lane, Widmore Road
Post by: Hippocrates on January 15, 2024, 08:10:07 pm
If they turn up, I am sure we will have a "spirited and lively exchange" (to  cite Lord Cameron).  I cannot wait!
Title: Re: Bromley Code 34J Being in a Bus Lane, Widmore Road
Post by: Martyn21uk on January 15, 2024, 11:52:49 am
Quote from: Hippocrates on January 15, 2024, 09:55:03 am
E mail sent with details of your what to do list!  This is unbelievable and voracious intransigence. :o

You almost sound surprised  :D  :D

As discussed, Tribunal appeal submitted.

Thanks
Title: Re: Bromley Code 34J Being in a Bus Lane, Widmore Road
Post by: Hippocrates on January 15, 2024, 09:55:03 am
E mail sent with details of your what to do list!  This is unbelievable and voracious intransigence. :o
Title: Re: Bromley Code 34J Being in a Bus Lane, Widmore Road
Post by: Martyn21uk on January 15, 2024, 08:14:52 am
Quote from: cp8759 on November 25, 2023, 04:50:20 pm
If you've given them your new address and they send the NoR to the old one, you can also use Natalia Skorosz v London Borough of Barking and Dagenham (2190347315, 12 October 2019) (https://drive.google.com/uc?id=1LhhpG5HmR52OQ4vYK6vn7HYc3_2TZuIL)

So I have received the Notice Of Rejection as below and despite me entering my new address when I appealed and including the request the send to my new address when I submitted, they have still sent to my old address.  (It is worth noting that my car is still registered to my old address as I do still own that property, it is just I am not living there day to day at the moment).

The hyperlink in the letter is https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/list-of-certifications-granted-for-approved-devices

(https://i.imgur.com/xZvJCMW.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/svOutZl.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/PEZvCvX.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/ZCR2bWw.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/gBDTeo8.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/UlrNmnL.jpg)
Title: Re: Bromley Code 34J Being in a Bus Lane, Widmore Road
Post by: Hippocrates on November 25, 2023, 08:20:11 pm
Quote from: cp8759 on November 25, 2023, 06:34:34 pm
Quote from: Hippocrates on November 25, 2023, 04:53:45 pm
Or give them my address and authorise me as previously advised!
Well any new address will do  :)
Yes;   but, I am here all the time!
Title: Re: Bromley Code 34J Being in a Bus Lane, Widmore Road
Post by: cp8759 on November 25, 2023, 06:34:34 pm
Quote from: Hippocrates on November 25, 2023, 04:53:45 pm
Or give them my address and authorise me as previously advised!
Well any new address will do  :)
Title: Re: Bromley Code 34J Being in a Bus Lane, Widmore Road
Post by: Hippocrates on November 25, 2023, 04:53:45 pm
Or give them my address and authorise me as previously advised!
Title: Re: Bromley Code 34J Being in a Bus Lane, Widmore Road
Post by: cp8759 on November 25, 2023, 04:50:20 pm
If you've given them your new address and they send the NoR to the old one, you can also use Natalia Skorosz v London Borough of Barking and Dagenham (2190347315, 12 October 2019) (https://drive.google.com/uc?id=1LhhpG5HmR52OQ4vYK6vn7HYc3_2TZuIL)
Title: Re: Bromley Code 34J Being in a Bus Lane, Widmore Road
Post by: Hippocrates on November 24, 2023, 12:25:06 pm
Good to hear.  I was just thinking of sending you a reminder!

As far as I recall, we now have two independent FOIR replies from the VCA confirming that their certificate is effective from 9th August plus the one from the council which states something else.  If you have time, I suggest following up the latter with the council - as I have tried, but still awaiting a definite response.  I hardly think the VCA can be wrong.  But, at the Tribunal, we do not want to be forced with a situation where the adjudicator has to choose which is right, if you get my drift.
Title: Re: Bromley Code 34J Being in a Bus Lane, Widmore Road
Post by: Martyn21uk on November 24, 2023, 10:32:29 am
Thanks Hippocrates and CP.  I have submitted the formal challenge to the Enforcement Notice this morning and taken screen shots of it going through.

I'll let you know when I hear back next!

Thanks
Title: Re: Bromley Code 34J Being in a Bus Lane, Widmore Road
Post by: cp8759 on November 24, 2023, 12:45:52 am
I would send that off and let's see what they say. If you can't receive post at the address previously given, you can simply require them to serve the response at another address.
Title: Re: Bromley Code 34J Being in a Bus Lane, Widmore Road
Post by: Hippocrates on November 22, 2023, 05:56:42 pm
I would wait until Friday in view of your personal circumstances;  however, I suggest this:

Dear London Borough of Bromley,

I note your letter of 3 October has an entire section titled "Going forward", but I disagree and think it would be best to go backwards. I therefore rely upon my informal representations which I require you to regard as my formal representations against the Enforcement Notice.  The alleged contravention did not occur as, at the time, your VCA certificate did not satisfy the criterion of admissibility of evidence at the Tribunal.

I am reliably informed by the VCA that your certificate is valid only from the effective date of 9th August.  Therefore, you must cancel the PCN and EN.  Should you not agree, I will not hesitate to take the matter to adjudication.

Yours
Title: Re: Bromley Code 34J Being in a Bus Lane, Widmore Road
Post by: Martyn21uk on November 22, 2023, 02:50:53 pm
Hi, our deadline of Monday is fast approaching.  I have had my response on the FOI, did you get anything back from your emails Hippocrates?

Also, due to personal circumstances, I am not currently in my marital home so I am a little bit nervous about missing anything in the post.  I have post re-direction set up but from experience it is not always 100%.

I think we are sticking to the response as below?

Dear London Borough of Bromley,

I note your letter of 3 October has an entire section titled "Going forward", but I disagree and think it would be best to go backwards. I therefore rely upon my informal representations which I require you to regard as my formal representations against the Enforcement Notice.   The alleged contravention did not occur as, at the time, your VCA certificate did not satisfy the criterion of admissibility of evidence at the Tribunal.

Yours faithfully,
Title: Re: Bromley Code 34J Being in a Bus Lane, Widmore Road
Post by: Hippocrates on November 06, 2023, 12:34:59 pm
The deemed date of service is 31st October.  Therefore, the deadline is Monday 27th November.  I suggest we wait until we receive replies.
Title: Re: Bromley Code 34J Being in a Bus Lane, Widmore Road
Post by: Hippocrates on November 03, 2023, 09:18:53 am
Quote from: cp8759 on November 02, 2023, 08:26:03 pm
Hippocrates might have some ideas but looking at the correspondence this came to me:

Dear London Borough of Bromley,

I note your letter of 3 October has an entire section titled "Going forward", but I disagree and think it would be best to go backwards. I therefore require you to treat my informal representations as my formal representations.

Yours faithfully,


In the meantime I've had confirmation that the camera is an AXIS Q1765-LE Network Camera.

I like the first sentence too, to be included!
Title: Re: Bromley Code 34J Being in a Bus Lane, Widmore Road
Post by: Hippocrates on November 03, 2023, 09:01:41 am
I have e mailed you both.  Also, I have checked the Govt. website.  The response received from their FOIR department is wrong.  But we can use it.  The effective date is 9th August.

I suggest: I rely upon my informal representations which I require you to regard as my formal representations against the Enforcement Notice.   The alleged contravention did not occur as, at the time, your VCA certificate did not satisfy the criterion of admissibility of evidence at the Tribunal.

Please cancel the PCN and EN forthwith.  If you do not agree to do so, my representative will take the matter to adjudication.

Yours faithfully

Title: Re: Bromley Code 34J Being in a Bus Lane, Widmore Road
Post by: cp8759 on November 02, 2023, 08:26:03 pm
Hippocrates might have some ideas but looking at the correspondence this came to me:

Dear London Borough of Bromley,

I note your letter of 3 October has an entire section titled "Going forward", but I disagree and think it would be best to go backwards. I therefore require you to treat my informal representations as my formal representations.

Yours faithfully,


In the meantime I've had confirmation that the camera is an AXIS Q1765-LE Network Camera.
Title: Re: Bromley Code 34J Being in a Bus Lane, Widmore Road
Post by: Martyn21uk on November 02, 2023, 09:44:22 am
Yesterday I received the Notice of Enforcement as below.  Nothing jumps out as being amiss in here but please do let me know if there is.  Could you please help advise on what I need to submit in appeal?



(https://i.imgur.com/ttzgrIM.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/akA9EeQ.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/lUiAzpd.jpg)
Title: Re: Bromley Code 34J Being in a Bus Lane, Widmore Road
Post by: Hippocrates on October 19, 2023, 09:16:22 am
This is a mess.  My detailed records show that their new certificate is valid from 9th August 2023.  VCA ref: EDG077151 Letter Date: 22nd August.  Device: Videalert Rapidly Deployable Server (RDS) system.

Bromley was the last but one to obtain a new certificate.  Hackney was the other.

I believe I am taking care of this one.  I will send the certificate to the op and cp by e mail.

Just wait for the Enforcement Notice.

VCA have written on 10th July that no LLA Certificate had been issued or acknowledgement letter.
Title: Re: Bromley Code 34J Being in a Bus Lane, Widmore Road
Post by: cp8759 on October 13, 2023, 06:02:25 pm
I'll do some digging into the make and model of the camera, in the meantime please let us know when you get the enforcement notice.
Title: Re: Bromley Code 34J Being in a Bus Lane, Widmore Road
Post by: Martyn21uk on October 11, 2023, 08:13:17 am
GSV link here, thanks.

https://www.google.com/maps/@51.4069489,0.0217438,3a,37.1y,217.49h,90.47t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1s9bRQqYUpoU0ZMn-2b1TW-w!2e0!7i16384!8i8192?entry=ttu
Title: Re: Bromley Code 34J Being in a Bus Lane, Widmore Road
Post by: cp8759 on October 10, 2023, 10:47:31 pm
Please give us a link to the location on google street view. There is a further camera argument that they haven't seen coming...
Title: Re: Bromley Code 34J Being in a Bus Lane, Widmore Road
Post by: Martyn21uk on October 09, 2023, 03:07:30 pm
Fast forward to last Friday

So Bromley have rejected my appeal as per the below.

Unbeknownst to me, they submitted a FOI request on my behalf which generated some unsolicited emails from "One Trust". I attach the responses from that as well. The link referred to in the PDF is https://tinyurl.com/bdcur7z3

Views welcomed!

(https://i.imgur.com/JACt6fv.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/bh4xaoj.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/bNDASb7.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/PzVGcqw.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/wj81QTz.jpg)
Title: Re: Bromley Code 34J Being in a Bus Lane, Widmore Road
Post by: Martyn21uk on October 09, 2023, 03:05:55 pm
Schofeldt added on the 10th August


https://emea01.safelinks.protection.outlook...&reserved=0

They haven't even applied for a new certificate nor has their camera manufacturer.
Title: Re: Bromley Code 34J Being in a Bus Lane, Widmore Road
Post by: Martyn21uk on October 09, 2023, 03:05:01 pm
Schofeldt replied 11th July 2023



Do not pay this at all as they still do not have a proper VCA certificate. I am more than happy to represent you.

http://forums.pepipoo.com/index.php?showto...iew=getlastpost

https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/go...authorities.ods

If they persist and force you to the Tribunal, costs will almost certainly be a possibility.

Draft representations:

Dear Sirs

Ref: PCN..................VRM.........................

I put you to strict proof that you possess a valid VCA certificate for your camera to satisfy the criterion of admissibility of evidence at the London Tribunal provided at Para. 7 (2) of Schedule 1 of the London Local Authorities Act 1996 (as amended).

Unless you can do so, then the PCN must be cancelled forthwith since any video evidence is inadmissible as has already been determined in many cases and one key case against viz. 2220486482 Davy Duthieuw v London Borough of Ealing.

Yours
Title: Bromley Code 34J Being in a Bus Lane, Widmore Road
Post by: Martyn21uk on October 09, 2023, 03:04:18 pm
Transferring this over from Pepipoo as it looks like it is going to outlast that site!


Original Post 11th July 2023

I'm happy to pay up if I'm as banged to rights as it looks. But always good to check I am not missing anything ahead of paying up...

Video is avaliable here - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lMe_ihSirsA

(https://i.imgur.com/o95PZn1.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/bvvpaiI.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/3qb5z6z.jpg)