Free Traffic Legal Advice
Live cases legal advice => Civil penalty charge notices (Councils, TFL and so on) => Topic started by: Chaseman on June 01, 2025, 09:50:10 pm
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Nope. Rescheduled to next year.
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Any update to this?
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Appeal filed with LT. Hearing scheduled for the end of October!
Latest on the Lambeth website:
https://imgur.com/9VUfn9f
Tells me that the fine will increase to £240 "very soon" and that I should pay £160 now. It previously said that it would go up to £240 on 19 July - which has been mysteriously forgotten!
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To be filed.
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You know what my advice will be!
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No great surprise, I have received a NoR
It disputes only the contention that the sign was covered by foliage - admittedly a weak point - but even then alludes to the signage being clear, not to whether the clear signage was in fact obscured by foliage. What it signally does NOT address is the point about the Lambeth website being inconsistent with the PCN itself. This was the wording of my challenge, left unaddressed:
3. I am making a collateral challenge on the grounds that the penalty charge discount amount date as published
on Lambeth’s website does not coincide with the 14 day period on the PCN itself. The PCN states:
“If the penalty charge is paid before the end of the period of 14 days beginning with the date of the notice, the
amount of the penalty charge will be reduced by 50% to £80.” The end of the 14 day period would thus be 11
June.
Yet on your website [extract taken today 10 June] it states:
The amount outstanding on the Charge Notice will increase to £160.00 on Tue, 17 Jun 2025. Please pay £80.00
now.
Moreover, the website gives the date of issue of the PCN as 18 May (which is when the CCTV was recorded)
while the PCN itself bears the date 29 May. Taken together this is all clearly misleading. I refer you to a recent
case decided at the London Tribunal [224036272 decided 15 October 2024] on similar grounds i.e. where
Lambeth’s website was inconsistent with the information given on the PCN. The adjudicator Mr Houghton said:
“In bare summary the Appellant submits that the Council’s website was giving incorrect and/or confusing
information regarding payment dates……The motorist is entitled to have clear and correct information from a
Council as to what is required to be paid and when; and in my judgement these errors are serious enough for the
Appeal to be allowed on the basis of a collateral challenge.”
I have been back onto the Lambeth website and it is now telling me that the penalty will go up to £240 on 19 July, i.e. it anticipates that I will not pay at the reoffered discount rate within 14 days and then assumes that a Charge Certificate will be issued, whereas the NoR itself says :"You can pay £160 if you miss the discount period. You have 28 days from the date of this letter being served to do this and it will close the case". Date of letter Tuesday 1 July, deemed serve 3 July, plus 14 days for the reoffered discount gets us to 17 July or payment in full by 31 July. So where does the seemingly definitive issue of a CC on 19 July fit into that timetable? I am minded to appeal to LT shortly after 19 July and then complain that they are threatening/seeking to issue a CC while an appeal is in progress, even if they do not actually issue it. This was the very point that adjudicator Houghton ruled on in my favour in the Rectory Grove 52M case last year.
Screenshot taken today (it's come out a bit small but the key message in the box is "The amount outstanding on the Charge Notice will increase to £240.00 on Sat, 19 Jul 2025. Please pay £80.00 now.") plus previous Lambeth website screenshot and also NoR:
https://imgur.com/a/xww7pMm
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Just keep an account of all this stuff. If and when I get back from Kos(lost passport) I will be in touch. Actually, I almost forgot the internet too.
Will do Hippocrates. Lost passport a pain. You forgot the world wide interweb??? ;)
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Just keep an account of all this stuff. If and when I get back from Kos(lost passport) I will be in touch. Actually, I almost forgot the internet too.
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I have been back on the Lambeth website now that my appeal has been entered. Here it is:
https://imgur.com/a/xww7pMm
Note "Your PCN is at discount stage. PCN process information." First they are conceding that the PCN is at the discount stage, which can only be the case if they are accepting that the PCN has been placed on hold while an appeal is under way. It has already exceeded the 14 days from issue. But if an appeal is under way, why do they say “The amount outstanding….will increase to £160 very soon”? This would only be the case if they have already decided that the appeal would fail. Fettered discretion? Notwithstanding that, why would I pay £80 now if I have not yet heard the result of my appeal? This is all heading the same way as the one I won re the Rectory Grove bridge i.e. the website is not in synch with the realities of the PCN appeal process.
This one:
https://www.ftla.uk/civil-penalty-charge-notices-(councils-tfl-and-so-on)/motorbike-52m-pcn-lambeth/msg31141/#msg31141
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Okay. I will deal with this one from now on.
Dear Lambeth
The left hand sign is covered by foliage. Therefore, you have not carried discharged your duties under regulation 18(1)(b) of The Local Authorities' Traffic Orders (Procedure) (England and Wales) Regulations 1996. And so it follows that the alleged contravention did not occur.
Furthermore, I make these collateral challenges:
(i) Your website only allows me to choose one ground whereas the legislation stipulates one or other grounds.
(ii) I adopt the reasoning in Adam Jones v Havering Case reference 2190374806 in terms of making a collateral challenge in lieu of procedural impropriety and state that your website also misstates crucial information as to when the price increases and when.
Considering the above, please cancel the PCN.
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@Chaseman serendipity. Let's talk via phone and/or email. Really is serendipity as off to Kos again!
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https://imgur.com/a/hwfZlp2
Managed to do it on Imgur
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Chaseman knows the score. I will remind him as he is a fellow Musketeer!
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I recently won a 52M with Lambeth thanks to Hippocrates. Make sure your screenshot the current payment demand page.
https://www.ftla.uk/civil-penalty-charge-notices-(councils-tfl-and-so-on)/pcn-52m-eastmearn-road-lambeth-5206/msg62370/#msg62370
Even when I was at the appeal stage, they were still threatening to raise the penalty! It was an easy win....
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Hippocrates
Here it is
https://pcnevidence.lambeth.gov.uk/pcnonline/step2.php
Sorry, don't seem to be able to screenshot and paste. Just enter PCN LJ32850351 and VRN KY15HXG
PCN issued 29 May so the 14 days is up by my reckoning on 11 June. Confusingly the screenshot says the penalty will increase to £160 on 17 June - which is 20 days after date of PCN??
I know what you are referring to - adjudicator was unpersuaded by the argument that the new traffic order had not been properly brought into being. Are we going for incorrect procedure on the website - which is looking a bit dodgy re dates admittedly?
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Guess I am going to have to pay this one at a discount unless anyone has any bright ideas....
I do and so should you if you remember the case we won last year. ;D Back later. Please screenshot the payment status page.
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Guess I am going to have to pay this one at a discount unless anyone has any bright ideas....
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I stand corrected. There are CCTV warning signs. I was indeed "testing the system" and looked round carefully for cameras. I think I just did not look high enough. Unless anyone comes up with a technical issue as to why the PCN is not valid then I am bang to rights.
This particular road has been a bone of contention between residents and Lambeth for years. Lambeth has wanted to block it off for years and the residents were equally keen to keep it open. Unfortunately it fell foul of the Lambeth mantra which is "find out what people want to do and stop them - or charge them".
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There are camera signs on both posts.
I suppose riding through a restriction is one way of testing enforcement but it could get expensive.
(https://i.ibb.co/Jjyv15h7/Penalty-Charge-Noticedetails-ezgif-com-video-to-gif-converter-2.gif)
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The PCN shows the following:
A motorcycle passing a pair of 'Motor vehicles prohibited' signs, one situated no more than 2 metres to the rider's left and the other perhaps 4 metres to their right. Both are visible;
An information sign to the effect that the motorist is entering an 'Area in which enforcement cameras are in use' situated immediately under both prohibition signs.
'I looked around carefully for camera enforcement but couldn't spot any.'
Specsavers beckons!
OP, more seriously, we need to know how you approached these very clear signs and whether there is any conceivable reason other that lack of attention to explain what's shown in the PCN.
Have you viewed the video?
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There is no legal requirement for camera enforcement signs. Your thread suggests that you chanced your arm and lost !
There may be a 'technical' appeal, (at London Tribunals), based on Lambeth mismanagment of the enforcement process. These centre on their web pages for paying PCNs, so wait a bit until the experts come on, buut don't miss the deadline for paying or submitting reps on the PCN.
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Here is an image from GSV but it dates from before the blocking off of Windmill Drive so of limited use
https://www.instantstreetview.com/@51.456718,-0.146299,232.96h,-7.31p,0.94z,3AYXZEekq_TqNBZqOltlvQ
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Lambeth has closed off Windmill Drive to through traffic - it used to be a handy way through from east to west side of Clapham Common but of course to Lambeth it was a "rat run" which meant that it was far preferable to close it off and force the traffic onto the main roads that bound the Common making them slower, more congested and of course emitting more nasty stuff. Logic never was Lambeth's strong point.
I rode my motorbike down there recently to check it out. I looked around carefully for camera enforcement but couldn't spot any. Nor was there any signage warning of camera enforcement. It seems I missed a camera which captured me. Any grounds for appeal here? Lack of camera warning signs?
Here are scans from the PCN
https://imgur.com/a/x2BY3RQ