Free Traffic Legal Advice
Live cases legal advice => Civil penalty charge notices (Councils, TFL and so on) => Topic started by: GoldFishBowl25 on May 02, 2025, 09:53:39 am
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This appeal is listed for video hearing later today. The hearing will not now take place given the council has not provided its evidence, there thus being no case for the appellant to answer. The appeal is allowed.
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They have not adduced evidence in many cases recently.
It looks to me as if an official in the council has decided it costs too much to prepare evidence packs, and as they're making shedloads of cash from people who just cough-up straightaway on receiving a PCN, its better to just not bother with tribunal cases. What is not clear here, is whether they DNCd the case, or just did nothing at all. Maybe a costs order is worth persuing in view of the council insolence towards the adjudicators
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Great news. Congratulations!
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They have not adduced evidence in many cases recently.
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Success!!
The hearing actually didn't go ahead yesterday - I got a call the afternoon before from London Tribunals telling me not to attend because Greenwich haven't provided any evidence.
I received the email just now saying:
The adjudicator directs Royal Borough of Greenwich to cancel the Penalty Charge Notice.
Adjudicator's Reasons
This appeal is listed for video hearing later today. The hearing will not now take place given the council has not provided its evidence, there thus being no case for the appellant to answer. The appeal is allowed.
And that's the end of that.
Thanks everyone for your support. You're providing such a valuable service and if it wasn't for you, I would have just paid the fine to avoid the stress.
Turns out the fine was illegitimate in the first instance and shouldn't have been issued... but that didn't stop the council. I never would have stuck it out without your help.
Thank you again you absolute Rockstars!!!
GoldFishBowl25
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Hi all,
I've contacted London Tribunals today and they say that Greenwich council haven't provided any evidence to date, but I still need to attend the hearing and the adjudicator will rule on my evidence.
Question - Do I need to add "The box junction does not conform to the requirements of TSRGD schedule 9 part 11 para 6" to my evidence - as per Andyjh's reply sent « on: September 02, 2025, 10:39:41 am » or just leave it?
https://www.ftla.uk/civil-penalty-charge-notices-(councils-tfl-and-so-on)/greenwich-31j-stopping-in-yellow-box-blakwall-lane/
Will they just rule in my favour if I attend - I haven't provided any actual evidence to this portal - just my appear letter (ChatGPT generated sadly).
Thanks for your help!
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Hi John U.K and Andyjh,
Thanks so much for your response - I read the thread that Andyjh referenced, it's the exact same issue.. well spotted! That has actually really reassured me :D
I have checked the portal again and the council have not uploaded any new evidence. I will give the a call tomorrow to see what's happening with that.
Should I update my appeal with this statement from Andykh's thread Reply#1, or just leave it as is:
"The box junction does not conform to the requirements of TSRGD schedule 9 part 11 para 6 . I will supply more detail at a later date before any hearing"?
Thanks for your help!
GoldFishBowl25
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At the moment, just wait to see if the council upload evidence. They have to do this at least 7 days before the appeal date, to give you time to respond.
There's a pretty decent chance they won't bother, so you'll win by default without having to do anything.
Hi Grant Urismo,
I've just checked the London Tribunals portal again and I can't see any uploaded evidence from the council. The only thing uploaded as evidence is the "Appellant Notice of Appeal" from June 9th (my appeal).
The hearing is this Friday 5th - and so they've missed the 7 days requirement as you mentioned. Does this mean the hearing goes ahead and I have to attend the call or will they cancel the call? Or is the original PCN notice and video "the evidence"?
I have no idea what to do or what to expect - please advise.
Many thanks!
GoldFishBowl25
As Grant indicated above, Greenwich are in the habit of losing by default for not submitting evidence. If you are still worried, you could
1) ring the tribunal tomorrow for guidance (always used to be helpful).
2) check the tribunal site tomorrow and Thursday for any late uploads. If Greenwich have submitted something, ring the Tribunal and also come back here.
For more re-assurance also have a read of the thread to which Andyjh posted a link above.
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I know this area - wouldn’t this also be an unauthorised yellow box as the junction to the left is a private entrance to what used to be a brewery, it’s not a public right of way.
GSV here: https://maps.app.goo.gl/H4dNA4PMwoMmxGbd6
Edit - yes it’s the same as this PCN here https://www.ftla.uk/civil-penalty-charge-notices-(councils-tfl-and-so-on)/greenwich-31j-stopping-in-yellow-box-blakwall-lane/
I’m amazed Greenwich have started enforcing what is clearly an unauthorised yellow box. Absolutely ridiculous council.
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At the moment, just wait to see if the council upload evidence. They have to do this at least 7 days before the appeal date, to give you time to respond.
There's a pretty decent chance they won't bother, so you'll win by default without having to do anything.
Hi Grant Urismo,
I've just checked the London Tribunals portal again and I can't see any uploaded evidence from the council. The only thing uploaded as evidence is the "Appellant Notice of Appeal" from June 9th (my appeal).
The hearing is this Friday 5th - and so they've missed the 7 days requirement as you mentioned. Does this mean the hearing goes ahead and I have to attend the call or will they cancel the call? Or is the original PCN notice and video "the evidence"?
I have no idea what to do or what to expect - please advise.
Many thanks!
GoldFishBowl25
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At the moment, just wait to see if the council upload evidence. They have to do this at least 7 days before the appeal date, to give you time to respond.
There's a pretty decent chance they won't bother, so you'll win by default without having to do anything.
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just post on the forum to keep the tread live I will draft you a skeleton argument all you need do is present it and answer questions that may be asked by the adjudicator
I will draft the skeleton before I visit my son mid august though if you can do not submit it until the council upload their evidence. I will be back well before the hearing to review it
Hi,
Can you help me with the draft argument please? I haven't seen anything uploaded to portal in terms of evidence yet - I've never attended one of these hearings so I have no idea what to expect.
Thanks very much
GoldFishBowl25
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Hi PastMyBest,
Just checking in again on this one - it's been a long wait, I almost forgot about it!
I've logged into the appeal portal, and they've not uploaded any evidence.
The appeal hearing is set for September 5th 9.00 - via video call.
Can you advise what I need to do now?
Thanks so much
GoldFishBowl25
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Thanks so much - really appreciated x
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just post on the forum to keep the tread live I will draft you a skeleton argument all you need do is present it and answer questions that may be asked by the adjudicator
I will draft the skeleton before I visit my son mid august though if you can do not submit it until the council upload their evidence. I will be back well before the hearing to review it
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Hi Pastmybest,
I got a hearing date back:
The hearing of your appeal will take place using the Microsoft Teams video conferencing platform on:
5th September 2025 at 09:00.
I was kind of hoping it wouldn't get this far. No such luck. Is there anything I need to prepare for this?
Thanks
GoldFishBowl25
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Let me know as soon as you have a hearing date best by PM
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Hi Pastmybest,
I have now submitted the appeal online with the wording you provided above. This is the case reference number: 2250281616
This was the response from the online appeal form:
What happens next:
The tribunal will review your submitted appeal and let you know if it is accepted within 7 days.
If you do not receive confirmation of the hearing date within 7 days contact us.
If you have further evidence, this can be uploaded by going to Return to my appeal
Any evidence must be uploaded 7 days before your hearing date or posted 14 days before to London Tribunals, PO Box 10598, NOTTINGHAM, NG6 6DR
So now we wait and see what they come back with.
Thanks so much - and I'll post any updates as they come in.
GoldFishBowl
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No write what i told you they might infer they want all the details at this stage but they don't and are required by law to consider everything submitted by the day before the hearing
And you never know, they might actually go and read what the statute says about stopping in YBJs !
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No write what i told you they might infer they want all the details at this stage but they don't and are required by law to consider everything submitted by the day before the hearing
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Hi all,
Thank you all for your help with this.
In section 6 of the form "Details of Appeal" the form states "Explain your case in this section. Please write clearly in the box.. ..If you need more space continue on a separate sheet."
It seems to be implying they want all the detail here, upfront?
So just want to double-check, shall I put as a response:
"I did not stop in the box junction for any reason stated in TSRGD 2016 schedule 9 part 11
Further submissions will be made later."
Thank you
I'll submit this week hopefully (so I don't forget to!)
GoldFishBowl25
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You have plenty of time to submit, and if needed i will be happy to draft your appeal. you have until the 16 of June to register your appeal. I suggest you do that towards the end of next week
Where you are asked for evidence write only I did not stop in the box junction for any reason stated in TSRGD 2016 schedule 9 part 11
Further submissions will be made later
Nothing more. When you have a case ref number come back to us here
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Any reasonable Adjudicator should throw this out, but on a technicality I would also argue that you're not stopped IN the box, you're on the edge markings.
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Hi MrChips,
Thanks for your response. Here's the 2nd page of the rejection notice and the appeal form.
I missed the 14 day discounted penalty charge window, so I'll have to appeal now (I think I would have done that anyway on principle).
Please can you give me a steer on what to say in the appeal please. The ChatGPT route didn't go well for me last time.
Thank you again for your help - really appreciated
GoldFishBowl25
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Rejection is no surprise, although it reflects badly on Greenwich. They are rather selective in their interpretation of the regulations, and basically say that stopping in the box junction is not allowed. This is an oversimplification; what the rules actually prohibit is entering the box junction in circumstances where the driver has to stop within the box junction due to stationary vehicles.
Next step would be independent adjudication. You only included one page of the rejection so I don't know if they've reoffered the discount or not. If they haven't then it's a no brainer to take this to adjudication as the penalty will not increase if you lose. If they have reoffered the discount, then you need to be aware that the discount is no longer on offer should you lose at adjudication. However, in my opinion, your odds of winning this at adjudication are close to 100% as it is self evident from the video that the driver didn't have to stop where he did and could have moved forward however many millimetres were necessary to completely clear the junction.
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Hi there,
This is what I got back from Greenwich Parking Services - a notice of rejection of representation.
There was still space to move forward and completely out of the junction box though... you can just about see that in the video footage - can I still appeal on that point?
Thank you - and this time I will confirm any responses with you before replying/appealing to Greenwich.
Best
GoldFishBowl25
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See what others say, but I'd just let it be. They should be cancelling this on the strength of the video alone, irrespective of what you wrote!
As councils tend to reject even the most reasonable of representations, submitting them is usually just a means to get access to the independent tribunal in any case.
But, for future reference, please run them past us first. What ChatGPT has come up with is several paragraphs of gobbledegook!
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Oh dear - I've submitted it now via the Greenwich portal. But it appears I can still submit more ecidence/information via the portal - what would you suggest?
Thanks
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Looks like a complete hash to be: -
The Road Traffic (London) Act 2003, Section 16(3): This legislation specifies that a vehicle must not stop within a box junction unless it is unavoidable due to stationary traffic. In my case, my vehicle did not stop within the junction but only briefly entered the end of the box, where there was sufficient space to move forward and exit without causing obstruction.
The Highway Code (Rule 174): This rule specifies that drivers should only stop in a box junction when they are prevented from moving by stationary traffic. As seen in the footage, I did not remain stationary in the box but was able to continue forward.
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Hi John,
ChatGPT generated - it looked okay to me, so I used it (I didn't not fact-check the case though!), and obviously I filled in the personal details
[Your Name]
[Your Address]
[City, Postcode]
[Email Address]
[Phone Number]
Date: [Insert Date]
Greenwich Council
Parking Services
[Insert Address]
[City, Postcode]
Re: Challenge to PCN [Insert PCN Number] – Entering and Stopping in a Box Junction
Dear Sir/Madam,
I am writing to formally challenge the Penalty Charge Notice (PCN) referenced above, issued for allegedly entering and stopping in a box junction at [insert location] on [insert date].
Upon reviewing the video footage of the incident, it is clear that while my vehicle entered the box junction, it did so with sufficient clearance. The very tail end of my vehicle briefly touched the end of the box junction, but I did not fully obstruct the junction, and there was ample space ahead to continue moving forward. At no point did my vehicle block the flow of traffic or create an obstruction, which aligns with the spirit of the regulations governing box junctions.
Relevant Legislation and Guidance:
The Road Traffic (London) Act 2003, Section 16(3): This legislation specifies that a vehicle must not stop within a box junction unless it is unavoidable due to stationary traffic. In my case, my vehicle did not stop within the junction but only briefly entered the end of the box, where there was sufficient space to move forward and exit without causing obstruction.
The Highway Code (Rule 174): This rule specifies that drivers should only stop in a box junction when they are prevented from moving by stationary traffic. As seen in the footage, I did not remain stationary in the box but was able to continue forward.
Case Law - London Borough of Waltham Forest v. Jamil (2015): In this case, the adjudicator ruled that a minor infringement of the box junction at the tail end, where there was clear room to move forward, did not constitute a contravention as long as the driver did not cause an obstruction or remain stationary within the box.
In light of these facts and the supporting legal framework, I respectfully request that you reconsider this penalty charge. The minor touch of the junction at the rear of my vehicle, while the front of the car was clear to move forward, should not be penalized, as the vehicle did not obstruct the flow of traffic or create any hazard.
Please confirm that the PCN has been cancelled or provide further details should you require additional information to review this challenge.
Thank you for your time and attention to this matter.
Yours sincerely,
[Your Name]
[PCN Number]
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I've just submitted a challenge - let's see what happens next!
Thanks again :)
May we see what you have written, please?
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Thanks for responding.
I agree - this is just easy money for them isn't it.
I've just submitted a challenge - let's see what happens next!
Thanks again :)
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To receive a PCN for that is a complete joke and brings the council into disrepute, imo.
I give you 100% chance of beating this. For one the car is barely in the box at all, but also it's abundantly clear that the vehicle did not have to stop within the box junction due to the presence of stationary vehicles as there is a decent sized gap ahead.
Even so, I would not be surprised to see Greenwich turn down any representations to this effect, although I suspect they would throw in the towel if you then took it to the tribunal.
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Hi all,
Please can you have a look at this PCN and video, and let me know if you think I have grounds to appeal or not?
PCN video (https://imgur.com/a/DXD4Q6J)
My husband (this time) could have cleared the junction box entirely, there was enough clearance in front to do that - I remember saying it to him in the car at the time (having gone through a similar process with my dad's earlier PCN). My hubby replied it was fine, he was out of the box... turns out not entirely!
Please let me know your thoughts - thanks so much for your help.
GoldFishBowl25
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