Author Topic: Greenwich PCN - 31J - Entering and stopping in a box junction when prohibited  (Read 1464 times)

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GoldFishBowl25

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Hi all,

Please can you have a look at this PCN and video, and let me know if you think I have grounds to appeal or not?

PCN video

My husband (this time) could have cleared the junction box entirely, there was enough clearance in front to do that - I remember saying it to him in the car at the time (having gone through a similar process with my dad's earlier PCN).  My hubby replied it was fine, he was out of the box... turns out not entirely!

Please let me know your thoughts - thanks so much for your help.

GoldFishBowl25

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« Last Edit: May 02, 2025, 09:57:51 am by GoldFishBowl25 »

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MrChips

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To receive a PCN for that is a complete joke and brings the council into disrepute, imo.

I give you 100% chance of beating this. For one the car is barely in the box at all, but also it's abundantly clear that the vehicle did not have to stop within the box junction due to the presence of stationary vehicles as there is a decent sized gap ahead.

Even so, I would not be surprised to see Greenwich turn down any representations to this effect, although I suspect they would throw in the towel if you then took it to the tribunal.

GoldFishBowl25

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Thanks for responding.

I agree - this is just easy money for them isn't it. 

I've just submitted a challenge - let's see what happens next!

Thanks again :)


John U.K.

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I've just submitted a challenge - let's see what happens next!

Thanks again :)
May we see what you have written, please?

GoldFishBowl25

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Hi John,

ChatGPT generated - it looked okay to me, so I used it (I didn't not fact-check the case though!), and obviously I filled in the personal details


[Your Name]
[Your Address]
[City, Postcode]
[Email Address]
[Phone Number]

Date: [Insert Date]

Greenwich Council
Parking Services
[Insert Address]
[City, Postcode]

Re: Challenge to PCN [Insert PCN Number] – Entering and Stopping in a Box Junction

Dear Sir/Madam,

I am writing to formally challenge the Penalty Charge Notice (PCN) referenced above, issued for allegedly entering and stopping in a box junction at [insert location] on [insert date].

Upon reviewing the video footage of the incident, it is clear that while my vehicle entered the box junction, it did so with sufficient clearance. The very tail end of my vehicle briefly touched the end of the box junction, but I did not fully obstruct the junction, and there was ample space ahead to continue moving forward. At no point did my vehicle block the flow of traffic or create an obstruction, which aligns with the spirit of the regulations governing box junctions.

Relevant Legislation and Guidance:

The Road Traffic (London) Act 2003, Section 16(3): This legislation specifies that a vehicle must not stop within a box junction unless it is unavoidable due to stationary traffic. In my case, my vehicle did not stop within the junction but only briefly entered the end of the box, where there was sufficient space to move forward and exit without causing obstruction.

The Highway Code (Rule 174): This rule specifies that drivers should only stop in a box junction when they are prevented from moving by stationary traffic. As seen in the footage, I did not remain stationary in the box but was able to continue forward.

Case Law - London Borough of Waltham Forest v. Jamil (2015): In this case, the adjudicator ruled that a minor infringement of the box junction at the tail end, where there was clear room to move forward, did not constitute a contravention as long as the driver did not cause an obstruction or remain stationary within the box.

In light of these facts and the supporting legal framework, I respectfully request that you reconsider this penalty charge. The minor touch of the junction at the rear of my vehicle, while the front of the car was clear to move forward, should not be penalized, as the vehicle did not obstruct the flow of traffic or create any hazard.

Please confirm that the PCN has been cancelled or provide further details should you require additional information to review this challenge.

Thank you for your time and attention to this matter.

Yours sincerely,
[Your Name]
[PCN Number]




john_s_wf

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Looks like a complete hash to be: -

The Road Traffic (London) Act 2003, Section 16(3): This legislation specifies that a vehicle must not stop within a box junction unless it is unavoidable due to stationary traffic. In my case, my vehicle did not stop within the junction but only briefly entered the end of the box, where there was sufficient space to move forward and exit without causing obstruction.

The Highway Code (Rule 174): This rule specifies that drivers should only stop in a box junction when they are prevented from moving by stationary traffic. As seen in the footage, I did not remain stationary in the box but was able to continue forward.

GoldFishBowl25

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Oh dear - I've submitted it now via the Greenwich portal.  But it appears I can still submit more ecidence/information via the portal  - what would you suggest?

Thanks

MrChips

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See what others say, but I'd just let it be.  They should be cancelling this on the strength of the video alone, irrespective of what you wrote!

As councils tend to reject even the most reasonable of representations, submitting them is usually just a means to get access to the independent tribunal in any case.

But, for future reference, please run them past us first.  What ChatGPT has come up with is several paragraphs of gobbledegook!

GoldFishBowl25

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Hi there,
This is what I got back from Greenwich Parking Services - a notice of rejection of representation.

There was still space to move forward and completely out of the junction box though... you can just about see that in the video footage - can I still appeal on that point?

Thank you - and this time I will confirm any responses with you before replying/appealing to Greenwich.

Best
GoldFishBowl25


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« Last Edit: May 21, 2025, 09:44:58 pm by GoldFishBowl25 »

MrChips

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Rejection is no surprise, although it reflects badly on Greenwich. They are rather selective in their interpretation of the regulations, and basically say that stopping in the box junction is not allowed. This is an oversimplification; what the rules actually prohibit is entering the box junction in circumstances where the driver has to stop within the box junction due to stationary vehicles.

Next step would be independent adjudication.  You only included one page of the rejection so I don't know if they've reoffered the discount or not. If they haven't then it's a no brainer to take this to adjudication as the penalty will not increase if you lose.  If they have reoffered the discount, then you need to be aware that the discount is no longer on offer should you lose at adjudication.  However, in my opinion, your odds of winning this at adjudication are close to 100% as it is self evident from the video that the driver didn't have to stop where he did and could have moved forward however many millimetres were necessary to completely clear the junction.

GoldFishBowl25

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Hi MrChips,

Thanks for your response.  Here's the 2nd page of the rejection notice and the appeal form.

I missed the 14 day discounted penalty charge window, so I'll have to appeal now (I think I would have done that anyway on principle).

Please can you give me a steer on what to say in the appeal please.  The ChatGPT route didn't go well for me last time. 

Thank you again for your help - really appreciated

GoldFishBowl25

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SITR

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Any reasonable Adjudicator should throw this out, but on a technicality I would also argue that you're not stopped IN the box, you're on the edge markings.

Pastmybest

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You have plenty of time to submit, and if needed i will be happy to draft your appeal. you have until the 16 of June to register your appeal. I suggest you do that towards the end of next week

Where you are asked for evidence write only I did not stop in the box junction for any reason stated in TSRGD 2016 schedule 9 part 11

Further submissions will be made later

Nothing more. When you have a case ref number come back to us here

GoldFishBowl25

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Hi all,

Thank you all for your help with this.

In section 6 of the form "Details of Appeal" the form states "Explain your case in this section.  Please write clearly in the box.. ..If you need more space continue on a separate sheet."

It seems to be implying they want all the detail here, upfront?

So just want to double-check, shall I put as a response:

"I did not stop in the box junction for any reason stated in TSRGD 2016 schedule 9 part 11
Further submissions will be made later.
"

Thank you

I'll submit this week hopefully (so I don't forget to!)

GoldFishBowl25



Pastmybest

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No write what i told you they might infer they want all the details at this stage but they don't and are required by law to consider everything submitted by the day before the hearing