Free Traffic Legal Advice
Live cases legal advice => Civil penalty charge notices (Councils, TFL and so on) => Topic started by: Jrc1234 on August 13, 2024, 04:58:18 pm
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;D ;) 8)
Paragraph 7(6) Rules OK! Let's go for costs. The usual nonsense claim that they had a certificate from 2009 and the WS referred to parking law. FGS! No wonder they did not turn up - although they never intended to do so in the first place.
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Morning Hippocrates!
Trust your weekend was good!
Thanks for the update and will look out for a PM.
This council never gives up do they! Lol
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Usual BS from them. I will drop you a PM so the appeal can be filed. They do not have a certificate from 2009!
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Morning Hippocrates and the forum!
Hope everyone has had a good weekend.
So as expected today I received the letter - Notice of Rejection of Representation when I sent back the appeal for the second time.
They have now sent me with the letter the Notice of Appeal to the traffic adjudicator.
I have attached the letter I received for you reference.
Link - https://imgur.com/a/DPzX2bR
Do let me know what you would advise for the next steps.
Thanks
j
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Noted on that thanks for the help.
Can I send this from my email address? (as she’s not good at checking for emails and I don’t want to miss this one)
Yes. They like to have the PCN and VRM in the header and give your full address etc.
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Noted on that thanks for the help.
Can I send this from my email address? (as she’s not good at checking for emails and I don’t want to miss this one)
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Noted.
So for the next stage of appeal this is the independent adjudicator then after is the tribunal?
When would I get my wife to sign that I am doing this ?
Why make it more complicated? Yes it will be Tribunal time and they haven't turned up for the last 4 cases I have done so that will be it. If I lose a bus lane PCN, I always pay half. None so far! In the last cases their officers were pretty clueless.
Just ask your wife to send this to: wfpcn@nsl.co.uk
Dear WF
Ref: PCN No and EN
I am the registered keeper though not the driver on the day in question. I require you to consider the original challenge as formal representations. In light of them, please cancel both notices.
Yours
Mrs. Jrc1234
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Noted.
So for the next stage of appeal this is the independent adjudicator then after is the tribunal?
When would I get my wife to sign that I am doing this ?
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But surely like a driving fine for speeding this can go in the name of the person who did it?
I would need to address it in the next letter so that my wife isn’t taken to court and it’s me who is :-)
There's no fine and no court: it is penalty and tribunal.
Have a read of
https://www.londontribunals.gov.uk/eat/understanding-enforcement-process/moving-traffic-pcn-enforcement-process
wherever 'you' is mentioned, it means the registered keeper. So as I said before, everything now is in your wife's name..
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But surely like a driving fine for speeding this can go in the name of the person who did it?
I would need to address it in the next letter so that my wife isn’t taken to court and it’s me who is :-)
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As I will be taking over the case in my name should I make this clear in the next appeal as I was the one driving and wouldn’t want it in her name
Will await your feedback
The driver has no standing in the civil enforcement process, and there will be no taking over the case in your name.
In online reps, you can make them as if from your wife (using her name), but the Notice of Acceptance or Rejection will go by post to the name and address of the Registered Keeper on the V5, as did the PCN. For an appeal to the Adjudicator, you will need an letter of authority signed by her authorising you to act on her behalf.
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As I will be taking over the case in my name should I make this clear in the next appeal as I was the one driving and wouldn’t want it in her name
Will await your feedback
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See the letter received in the images links here
https://ibb.co/GQwFv2L
https://ibb.co/zJXjLHf
https://ibb.co/mBXbvYZ
https://ibb.co/gFKzRjp
Will await your next steps
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Let's see it please. It is addressed to your wife as she is the registered keeper. She should sign the formal representations.
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Also they are still sending the letter addressed to my wife who owns the vehicle but I was the one driving and taking this over.
I would need to put that in the next stage so they contact me and not here lol!
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Hi Hippocrates
Hope you’re have been well and had a good week.
I have received in the post the next letter titled Enforcement Notice.
Would I forward the same appeal to this stage?
Will await your feedback.
Thanks
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Drove along Whipps Cross Road a few days ago and lo and behold after numerous years of no maintenance they have finally repainted the road markings.
Better late than never!
I wonder if they'll be mendacious, and show the repainted road markings in the EN, and at London Tribunals.
Any mendacity will be dealt with accordingly. (https://emoji.tapatalk-cdn.com/emoji59.png)
But, I doubt they will even turn up.
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Drove along Whipps Cross Road a few days ago and lo and behold after numerous years of no maintenance they have finally repainted the road markings.
Better late than never!
I wonder if they'll be mendacious, and show the repainted road markings in the EN, and at London Tribunals. You can bet your bottom dollar this repaint was not normal maintenance.
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Wait for the EN.
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Drove along Whipps Cross Road a few days ago and lo and behold after numerous years of no maintenance they have finally repainted the road markings.
Better late than never!
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Serendipity.
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Haha! Thanks for the info.
I look forward to having some fun with this one :-)
Will ping a reply when the enforcement is received in the post!
Have a good evening
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The London Local Authorities Act 2000 enabled Authorities to issue PCNs by CCTV although there was no legal requirement until 31 March 2009 for an approved device to be used by an Authority. Our Certificate of approval was issued by this date.
TAB = Total absolute bolleaux which resulted in costs decision: 2240194118.
In their notice of rejection, in one particular sentence, the local authority stated that they had an approved device by 31st March 2009. The approval certificate they rely on is dated 6th March 2023. I find the sentence to be misleading in what is an important document in these proceedings.
Just wait for the Enforcement Notice and we will have some fun. They are totally clueless and evidently do not read decisions.
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Evening Hippocrates and the forum,
Hope you’re having a good week!
So as expected today I got the response from Waltham Forest Council Who have rejected the appeal … surprise surprise.
Response is here:
Thank you for your correspondence regarding the above Penalty Charge Notice (PCN) and after considering all the evidence the Authority is satisfied that the contravention occurred and that the PCN was issued correctly.
The PCN was issued because the CCTV evidence confirms that the vehicle travelled in a bus lane thereby contravening the bus lane regulations.
Whilst I appreciate your circumstances, they do not warrant the cancellation of the PCN.
The signing of the Bus Lane in question, is in accordance with the governments Traffic Signs Regulations and General Directions - which state that signs must be no more than 185 meters apart. It is not a TSRGD requirement to install a end of bus lane sign and TfL no longer use this on their bus lanes as they consider it unnecessary clutter.
Lines clearly become worn and faded in varying degrees from time to time. However, they are still enforceable if they are substantially clear and compliant and not misleading to the motorist. Having considered the photographic evidence, the Authority is satisfied that the bus lane markings are clear and enforceable.
The London Local Authorities Act 2000 enabled Authorities to issue PCNs by CCTV although there was no legal requirement until 31 March 2009 for an approved device to be used by an Authority. Our Certificate of approval was issued by this date.
To view our approval on the website please go to: www.gov.uk/government/publications/list- of-certifications-granted-for-approved-devices.
Keeping buses moving is an essential part of improving public transport and reducing traffic congestion. All of the borough’s bus lanes are clearly identified by road markings and signage. The operational hours of bus lanes i.e. when other vehicles are not allowed to drive in them, are identified on the roadside signs, operation times may vary, and if there is no time restriction on the sign, the bus lane is operational at all times.
Under sections 5 & 8 of the RTA, a vehicle must not drive, park, or stop in a bus lane during its period of operation unless the signs indicate that the vehicle may do so.
I am therefore satisfied that the PCN was issued correctly and you remain liable for the charge.
To view the footage at the time the penalty was issued you can visit: www.walthamforest.gov.uk/ocm
You will need to enter your PCN number and vehicle registration mark.
Your informal representation made prior to the Enforcement Notice has been rejected on this occasion. As your correspondence was received within the discount period the reduced amount of £65.00 will be accepted as full payment of this Penalty Charge if payment is received within 14 days beginning with the date on which this letter was served.
You now have two options:
Option1:
Pay the reduced Penalty Charge of £65.00 within 14 days of service of this letter and the case will be closed.
Option 2:
Make a Formal Representation against the Enforcement Notice which will be sent to you if payment is not received within the time stipulated. Please be advised that at this stage the Penalty Charge will be payable at the full fine amount of £130.00.
If your formal representation is rejected an Appeals form will be sent to you with which you can make an appeal to the Independent Adjudicator. The Adjudicators decision is binding and can order the payment of costs against either the council or the registered keeper if either party has been particularly unreasonable.
The next step would be Option 2.
Would I be waiting for that to be received in the post?
Thanks
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I haven't! Sorry for any unintended criticisms.
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Post #16 in the thread I quoted above makes reference to Chapter 5 Road markings diagram 1010. 1m gap between dashes.
This is just making the point that a dashed line has 1m gaps and the gap in the bus lane marking is 2m long.
It surely cannot be deemed 'substantially compliant' if it is a greater gap than a dashed line.
Hopefully I've wriggled off the hook!
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@Glitch: I cited you from another thread. ;)
:-[
Don't know where the bit in blue above came from. It doesn't apply to this bus lane.
I put a fair amount into this one Whipps Cross Bus Lane (https://www.ftla.uk/civil-penalty-charge-notices-(councils-tfl-and-so-on)/waltham-forest-whipps-cross-road-e11-bus-lane-contravention/). Nothing about left turn markings though.
Doesn't matter for Council but it will for Tribunal. I'll keep searching to see if I've messed up in another thread.
I think the key points are that they only monitor the final 33m or so of the 186m bus lane (google map measurements)
Observed behaviour warrants an end of bus lane sign (but they cant seem to put on on the bridge). Adjudicators might not see a trend but we certainly have seen nearly everyone clipping the end.
When is a continuous solid line no longer continuous? I'd say 2m is more than enough. Lack of maintenance of road markings. Not repainted for many years - gap is growing as seen on GSV.
Camera angle does not provide context. No signs visible. Are they deliberately trying to imply the bus lane continues down the road when it is right on the end?
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@Glitch: I cited you from another thread. ;)
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3. Notably, there is no clear end of bus lane sign visible. I refer to the Traffic Signs Manual Chapter Three@9.3.9. The end of a with flow bus lane will usually be obvious through the termination of the diagram 1049A marking. If considered necessary due to observed driver behaviour, an upright sign to diagram 964 (S9 4 11, see Figure 9-5) may be sited as shown in Figure 9-1.
The lane should normally be stopped short of the Stop line at traffic signal controlled junctions. I refer to para. 9.3.13. Where a nearside bus lane passes a junction with a major left turning flow into the side road, the line to diagram 1049A should be replaced with a broken line to diagram 1010 (see Figure 9-1). The broken line should commence 30 m in advance of the junction, and have the same width as the line to diagram 1049A. It should be accompanied by the arrow to diagram 1050 indicating a left turn (see Figure 9-6). At other junctions, the diagram 1049A marking should be terminated approximately 10 m before the junction (or at the junction if the minor road is one way towards the major road). In each case the bus lane recommences beyond the junction in combination with a marking to diagram 1010 (see Figure 9-1). It is important to ensure that the marking to diagram 1049A is terminated correctly, so that drivers turning left can move across to do so safely without needing to cross the continuous line.
Given the camera only focusses on the final 33 metres, it is arguable that the observed behaviour will constitute a large majority of motorists clipping the end.
I'm not getting the relevance of the bit in blue, unless there is something subtle I've missed. This only applies to the markings where there is a side road. There are no turnings before the traffic lights on this bus lane. The lane stops before the traffic lights.
Because they only focus on the final 33m of the 186m bus lane, the observed behaviour is almost always clipping the last 10 metres or so.
re: 2. I did measure the gap which is approximately 2 metres.
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Hi there,
Brand new to this forum so apologies if I'm not doing things right, and sorry to piggyback off this thread,
. . .
Many thanks,
LCS1919
Please to have a read of this
https://www.ftla.uk/civil-penalty-charge-notices-(councils-tfl-and-so-on)/read-this-first-before-posting-your-case!-this-section-is-for-council-tfl-dartme/
And start your own thread with all sides of your PCN (redacting only yr name & address),
the video,
a GSV link to the location
and a brief account of the circumstances. By all means include a link to this thread in your own post, but basic forum rule is one cae per thread.
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Hi there,
Brand new to this forum so apologies if I'm not doing things right, and sorry to piggyback off this thread, but I am dealing with a PCN for the exact same circumstances as OP here (pulled into the 'bus lane' after the bus stop marked, intending to get in lane for the imminent roundabout, blissfully unaware the bus lane even went that far).
Can anyone advise whether I should use the same formatting for the appeal letter as above?
My mitigating circumstances are not quite as severe, though I was returning to work after receiving treatment for a cat bite on my foot at Whipps Cross A&E, so this was a fun little cherry on top of that particular day. /s
Many thanks,
LCS1919
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Evening H!
To confirm this appeal has now been sent off to the council!
hope you have had a good day and will touch base on the forum when i get a reply!
Best
JRC
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Send it off now please. We will deal with each one separately.
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Want me to wait for further PCNs or get this sent off?
thanks
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Good to go IMO.
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Many thanks! a lot of sleepless nights for a while!
here is the updated point 5:
Dear Waltham Forest
Ref: PCN: FR63196811 VRM: WF68WJV
I make this initial challenge as follows:
1. The video evidence provided does not clearly show any signs allegedly passed or violated. Therefore, it follows that the alleged contravention is not proved.
2. The presence of a break in the solid white line within the road markings is confusing and misleading to motorists. This can contribute to unintentional lane changes.
https://i.ibb.co/G52vZs1/IMG-9998.jpg
3. Notably, there is no clear end of bus lane sign visible. I refer to the Traffic Signs Manual Chapter Three@9.3.9. The end of a with flow bus lane will usually be obvious through the termination of the diagram 1049A marking. If considered necessary due to observed driver behaviour, an upright sign to diagram 964 (S9 4 11, see Figure 9-5) may be sited as shown in Figure 9-1. The lane should normally be stopped short of the Stop line at traffic signal controlled junctions. I refer to para. 9.3.13. Where a nearside bus lane passes a junction with a major left turning flow into the side road, the line to diagram 1049A should be replaced with a broken line to diagram 1010 (see Figure 9-1). The broken line should commence 30 m in advance of the junction, and have the same width as the line to diagram 1049A. It should be accompanied by the arrow to diagram 1050 indicating a left turn (see Figure 9-6). At other junctions, the diagram 1049A marking should be terminated approximately 10 m before the junction (or at the junction if the minor road is one way towards the major road). In each case the bus lane recommences beyond the junction in combination with a marking to diagram 1010 (see Figure 9-1). It is important to ensure that the marking to diagram 1049A is terminated correctly, so that drivers turning left can move across to do so safely without needing to cross the continuous line. Given the camera only focusses on the final 33 metres, it is arguable that the observed behaviour will constitute a large majority of motorists clipping the end.
Clearly, there used to be an End of Bus Lane sign. I also rely upon this High Court ruling:
R(Oxfordshire County Council) v The Bus Lane Adjudicator [2010]EWHC 894 (Admin) Mr Justice Beatson confirmed that, Para 65. The Defendant's submission that the fact that signs are prescribed or authorised does not mean they are sufficient for securing adequate information as to the effect of an order is made available to road users is clearly correct. If the signs do not in fact provide adequate information no offence is committed;
4. I put you to strict proof that the camera used for monitoring and enforcement satisfies the criterion of admissibility of evidence at the Tribunal, as outlined in Para 7(2) of Schedule 1 of The London Local Authorities Act 1996 (as amended) and Part II.
5. Mitigating circumstances: I was returning home quickly whilst my wife was in labour at the nearby Whipps Cross Hospital where I have resided between 07/08/2024 to 11/08/2024 whilst my wife and baby were under serious care by the maternity doctors at the hospital.
In light of the above, please cancel the said PCN.
Yours faithfully
Reg. keeper
Address
I will look to send this off at the end of the week whilst I wait for any other PCN letter to appear in the post. If any more appear then as you said earlier this would be updated.
Many thanks
JRC
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Hi Hippocrates
thanks for this i'll taker a read of this!
Crazy day with a new born finally some time to read through this! :-)
thanks again
Congratulations! ;)
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Looks absolutely great!!!!!!! wow!
For point 5 shall i keep it short and sweet as you have minus the etc etc or elaborate more?
thanks
Post it up here first pl.
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Looks absolutely great!!!!!!! wow!
For point 5 shall i keep it short and sweet as you have minus the etc etc or elaborate more?
thanks
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Hi Hippocrates
thanks for this i'll taker a read of this!
Crazy day with a new born finally some time to read through this! :-)
thanks again
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Dear Waltham Forest
Ref: PCN: FR63196811 VRM: WF68WJV
I make this initial challenge as follows:
1. The video evidence provided does not clearly show any signs allegedly passed or violated. Therefore, it follows that the alleged contravention is not proved.
2. The presence of a break in the solid white line within the road markings is confusing and misleading to motorists. This can contribute to unintentional lane changes.
https://i.ibb.co/G52vZs1/IMG-9998.jpg
3. Notably, there is no clear end of bus lane sign visible. I refer to the Traffic Signs Manual Chapter Three@9.3.9. The end of a with flow bus lane will usually be obvious through the termination of the diagram 1049A marking. If considered necessary due to observed driver behaviour, an upright sign to diagram 964 (S9 4 11, see Figure 9-5) may be sited as shown in Figure 9-1. The lane should normally be stopped short of the Stop line at traffic signal controlled junctions. I refer to para. 9.3.13. Where a nearside bus lane passes a junction with a major left turning flow into the side road, the line to diagram 1049A should be replaced with a broken line to diagram 1010 (see Figure 9-1). The broken line should commence 30 m in advance of the junction, and have the same width as the line to diagram 1049A. It should be accompanied by the arrow to diagram 1050 indicating a left turn (see Figure 9-6). At other junctions, the diagram 1049A marking should be terminated approximately 10 m before the junction (or at the junction if the minor road is one way towards the major road). In each case the bus lane recommences beyond the junction in combination with a marking to diagram 1010 (see Figure 9-1). It is important to ensure that the marking to diagram 1049A is terminated correctly, so that drivers turning left can move across to do so safely without needing to cross the continuous line. Given the camera only focusses on the final 33 metres, it is arguable that the observed behaviour will constitute a large majority of motorists clipping the end.
Clearly, there used to be an End of Bus Lane sign. I also rely upon this High Court ruling:
R(Oxfordshire County Council) v The Bus Lane Adjudicator [2010]EWHC 894 (Admin) Mr Justice Beatson confirmed that, Para 65. The Defendant's submission that the fact that signs are prescribed or authorised does not mean they are sufficient for securing adequate information as to the effect of an order is made available to road users is clearly correct. If the signs do not in fact provide adequate information no offence is committed;
4. I put you to strict proof that the camera used for monitoring and enforcement satisfies the criterion of admissibility of evidence at the Tribunal, as outlined in Para 7(2) of Schedule 1 of The London Local Authorities Act 1996 (as amended) and Part II.
5. Mitigating circumstances: I was returning home quickly whilst my wife was in labour at a nearby hospital. etc etc.
In light of the above, please cancel the said PCN.
Yours faithfully
Reg. keeper
Address
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I will draft representations for you later using the previous submissions in the aforementioned cases.
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Let me give it a couple more days and see if any other arrive will come back on and update tomorrow.
Ill call the council again and see if any more have appeared on the system.
Is There anything i can do in the meantime?
thanks for the help
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If i were to get another would i challenge separately with the same reasons?
Yes with a few adjustments to cater for the repeated PCN(s).
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They tried looking up and so far no others, but he wasnt 100% sure if anymore could appear.
Lets go with this one.
If i were to get another would i challenge separately with the same reasons?
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On the phone to them now and finding out!
Very good point to call them up! thanks so much
will come back asap
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This week i will find out if more letter arrive in the post hopefully no more.
You should be able to ring the Council and ask what, if any, PCNs are outstanding against your reg.mark.
Given the state of the post these days I'd be inclined to do this.
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Keep us up to date please.
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Also to note this was on the 07/08/2024
i also drove down the same route on the 08/08,09/08,10/08 and 11/08 whilst visiting the hospital.
This week i will find out if more letter arrive in the post hopefully no more.
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Hi Hippocrates
I read through the previous post and a lot of it is exactly the same. Was impressed with your knowledge!
VRM: WF68 WJV
PCN: FR63196811
The car is my wife's car and i was driving it for context. She was just about to go into labour a few hours after.
Best
JRC1234
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We know this location very well and I/we have just won at least three cases against them very recently. We do need the VRM and PCN numbers please. When I receive them, I will draft representations after looking at the video.
2240089033; 2240293663; 2240194118. The last one quite rightly resulted in costs.
In this legislation, they must attend or the camera evidence is inadmissible. They tend not to do so. :D
I forgot this one:
https://www.ftla.uk/civil-penalty-charge-notices-(councils-tfl-and-so-on)/waltham-forest-whipps-cross-road-e11-bus-lane-contravention/msg13266/#msg13266
https://www.ftla.uk/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=266.0;attach=4294
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Fine letter here
https://ibb.co/DGhCpzJ
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https://ibb.co/SXYpG9c
https://ibb.co/P5hHyJf
https://ibb.co/xsSmKjT
https://ibb.co/LNbRvq3
Images here
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What would be the easiest way to upload images?
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Hi All,
Got a new fine this morning see images below and info - any help would be great!
This was for 07/07/2024 and was returning home quickly whilst my wife was in labour at a nearby hospital. (100% genuine reason).
I drove home up to the Green Man roundabout found off Whipps Cross Road and at the end of the bus lane the line breaks and i drive into what i think is ok but infact the end of the bus lane.
Awful road markings and this camera generates £1,000,000 a month for the council see articles here:
https://www.guardian-series.co.uk/news/19525536.council-rakes-1m-fines-single-east-london-bus-lane/
Also see images of the location and from the council website of my car.
What could I do to defend this?