Free Traffic Legal Advice
Live cases legal advice => Speeding and other criminal offences => Topic started by: Monkeytennis on May 13, 2024, 03:58:15 pm
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To be realistic, in practical terms it is impossible to prove that a letter has not been delivered, and the police will certainly be able to prove that it was posted to the RK in good time. Unless you were a significant time into the red, for jumping a red light you would get a fixed penalty of £100 + 3 points. If you chose to fight it in court on the basis of a late NIP and lose, which is very likely, you will face an income related fine + surchage, plus prosecution costs with a guideline of £670. That would be a mug's game, the sensible thing to do would be to accept the likely fixed penalty.
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Really? I haven't seen any evidence of the alleged offence, how can I just be assumed to be guilty without me even seeing any evidence, that's not how the justice system works in the UK?
Shouldn't I be requesting images of evidence at least and is there a process to follow to request them?
If you want to see the evidence that the police have and to be able to argue your case, then you plead not guilty and you will have a full blown court hearing. The fixed penalty system is for people who accept their guilt, they can avoid a court hearing and associated costs and receive a lesser penalty. It is the same principle as allowing a 33% discount on the penalty for a guilty plea in court. If you know you are not guilty, then you should opt to go to court and fight the case, but doing so on the basis of a late NIP is difficult when you have no evidence apart from the RK saying it was never received. The police routinely track the NIPs issued and will be able to provide proof that the bag containing the NIP was handed to the Royal Mail at a particular time and date. The law provides that the mail is assumed to have been delivered correctly and on time unless the contrary is proved. (s.7 Interpretation Act) which is taken to be the second working day after posting. The best contrary proof is proof of delivery after the 14 days, but in the leading case on the subject (Gidden) the Magistrates' Court did not even accept evidence from the postman about the day of delivery, although that was conceded in the higher court.
If the evidence in a road traffic case is photographic, the police may allow you to see it before accepting a fixed penalty, but they do not have to. For a red light offence, bear in mind that the offence is committed if any part of the vehicle crosses the stop line while the red light is showing (techically, or if the amber light is showing unless it would have been dengerous to stop, although that is rarely prosecuted)
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Really? I haven't seen any evidence of the alleged offence, how can I just be assumed to be guilty without me even seeing any evidence, that's not how the justice system works in the UK?
That is the system. Don't be late in your reply or it gives you worse issues.
The police can prove postage (almost certainly). Delivery is presumed because the law says so. It's not great, but you can attempt rebuttal. It has been rarely known to succeed. Take all your evidence to court and give it a whirl. The consequence of failure has been pointed up.
If it were the case that "I didn't get it" provided acceptance I suspect there might be a substantial increase in the number of not guilty pleas.
Personally, given RMs own statistics of 14/10,000 things going missing from their own test, I think this does mount up to fair number of people who do have a valid defence if only they could persuade a bench.
At the moment there is a request for driver details. Typically the next step will see an offereing of disposal for £100 and 3pts. But it could be a course or a prosecution.
The system does that in order to allow those who readily accept their guilt to deal with it in a simple cost effective manner. It doesn't offer "well if you can prove it I will accept the easy option".
You have no entitlement to evidence. If you wish you can elect to go through the process of court. There is a high probability that they will show a photo of the vehicle commiting the alleged offence as described. But a COFP or course is off the table.
A common practice is to ask - without using "evidence" for "photos to assist identifying the driver". They often oblige. But it is in their gift.
Another issue is that you commit a more serious offence if you don't answer in time, the clock is still ticking. Also in cases where there have been delays they may not make a fixed penalty offer because it would allow a timeout to be engineered.
You have very limited time left. Some forces will put pictures on line. It could be footage from operation snap.
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To be realistic, in practical terms it is impossible to prove that a letter has not been delivered, and the police will certainly be able to prove that it was posted to the RK in good time. Unless you were a significant time into the red, for jumping a red light you would get a fixed penalty of £100 + 3 points. If you chose to fight it in court on the basis of a late NIP and lose, which is very likely, you will face an income related fine + surchage, plus prosecution costs with a guideline of £670. That would be a mug's game, the sensible thing to do would be to accept the likely fixed penalty.
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Really? I haven't seen any evidence of the alleged offence, how can I just be assumed to be guilty without me even seeing any evidence, that's not how the justice system works in the UK?
Shouldn't I be requesting images of evidence at least and is there a process to follow to request them?
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I've seen the V5. I've also been told by the RK that they responded to a reminder having not received any prior letter.
So, since the initial NIP was not received, that clears things up a little.
If you want to defend the charge on the basis that no NIP was served on the RK within 14 days, the burden falls on you to prove it. The police will almost certainly provide evidence that the NIP was posted so as to arrive in time. So long as they do that to the court's satisfaction it is then presumed to have been delivered within two working days. You will have to convince the court ("on the balance of probabilities" - i.e. more likely than not) that it was not. Proving that something did not happen is notoriously difficult and made a bit more so for you as you as you will have to rely on the testimony of the recipient.
As I pointed out, you must respond to the request for driver's details in any case.
Thanks.
Would the police not have something to prove postage? How can delivery be assumed? The RK and another family member have both previously posted on the local estate Facebook group about post not been received or getting or receiving letters / parcels addressed to others. The post around here isn't exactly consistently reliable.
I could use the screenshots that show posts from the Facebook that show local problems at least, but how can I prove that something wasn't delivered, that's impossible unless the police send something recorded delivery?
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So what were the dates for the reminder?
I'm pretty sure it was stated 15th April or very close to that date.
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To be realistic, in practical terms it is impossible to prove that a letter has not been delivered, and the police will certainly be able to prove that it was posted to the RK in good time. Unless you were a significant time into the red, for jumping a red light you would get a fixed penalty of £100 + 3 points. If you chose to fight it in court on the basis of a late NIP and lose, which is very likely, you will face an income related fine + surchage, plus prosecution costs with a guideline of £670. That would be a mug's game, the sensible thing to do would be to accept the likely fixed penalty.
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A Notice issued that long after the offence is all but certain to NOT be the first issued.
It is either a reminder to one (not received/not seen) sent earlier (not all say they are a reminder, some are quite literally just a reprint with just the issue date changed) or a follow up Notice after a the RK has named the keeper.
LOOK AT and CHECK the V5c, DO NOT take the keeper's word as gospel, we see too many posts from those convinced they are the RK who turn out not to be (address wrong or it's a leased or Financed car where the lender is the RK) to take peoples word for it.
I've seen the V5. I've also been told by the RK that they responded to a reminder having not received any prior letter.
Didn't the family member think to tell you that they'd previously received a reminder?
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I've seen the V5. I've also been told by the RK that they responded to a reminder having not received any prior letter.
So, since the initial NIP was not received, that clears things up a little.
If you want to defend the charge on the basis that no NIP was served on the RK within 14 days, the burden falls on you to prove it. The police will almost certainly provide evidence that the NIP was posted so as to arrive in time. So long as they do that to the court's satisfaction it is then presumed to have been delivered within two working days. You will have to convince the court ("on the balance of probabilities" - i.e. more likely than not) that it was not. Proving that something did not happen is notoriously difficult and made a bit more so for you as you as you will have to rely on the testimony of the recipient.
As I pointed out, you must respond to the request for driver's details in any case.
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I've seen the V5. I've also been told by the RK that they responded to a reminder having not received any prior letter.
At last.
Provide a description of events (if you know what happened) telling us as much about the incident as possible - some things that may seem trivial to you may be important, so don't leave anything out
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So what were the dates for the reminder?
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A Notice issued that long after the offence is all but certain to NOT be the first issued.
It is either a reminder to one (not received/not seen) sent earlier (not all say they are a reminder, some are quite literally just a reprint with just the issue date changed) or a follow up Notice after a the RK has named the keeper.
LOOK AT and CHECK the V5c, DO NOT take the keeper's word as gospel, we see too many posts from those convinced they are the RK who turn out not to be (address wrong or it's a leased or Financed car where the lender is the RK) to take peoples word for it.
I've seen the V5. I've also been told by the RK that they responded to a reminder having not received any prior letter.
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Have you seen the V5C and are all the details on it correct? Has the vehicle been recently acquired or has the RK recently changed address?
It is important to make sure that there was no reason for this late NIP (if you are considering defending any charge based on a late NIP). It has not been delayed in the post - it was issued late and that doesn't happen very often.
Nonetheless, whatever issues there are with the timeliness of the NIP, you must respond to the request for driver's details.
I know that the RK is my family member because I live with them.
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A Notice issued that long after the offence is all but certain to NOT be the first issued.
It is either a reminder to one (not received/not seen) sent earlier (not all say they are a reminder, some are quite literally just a reprint with just the issue date changed) or a follow up Notice after a the RK has named the keeper.
LOOK AT and CHECK the V5c, DO NOT take the keeper's word as gospel, we see too many posts from those convinced they are the RK who turn out not to be (address wrong or it's a leased or Financed car where the lender is the RK) to take peoples word for it.
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GSV, including the camera: https://maps.app.goo.gl/9aCHRrcrGpjaSvDe7
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It is possible that the initial NIP was issued late, although this would require an over-ride.
More likely, that the address on the V5C is not the current address of the person claiming to be the RK, or if it is, then an earlier NIP was most likely sent and apparently not received.
Final possibility is that this was reported by a member of the public, possibly too late for the police to be able to ascertain the RK's details in time to issue a NIP within the 14 days, which might provide an exemption to the 14 day rule.
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Have you seen the V5C and are all the details on it correct? Has the vehicle been recently acquired or has the RK recently changed address?
It is important to make sure that there was no reason for this late NIP (if you are considering defending any charge based on a late NIP). It has not been delayed in the post - it was issued late and that doesn't happen very often.
Nonetheless, whatever issues there are with the timeliness of the NIP, you must respond to the request for driver's details.
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Hi. The RK is a family member so yes I am sure.
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Hi everyone,
I've been over to Pepipoo however it appears to be down presently so I cannot complete the NIP Wizard properly. I have used the format
NIP Details and Circumstances
What is the name of the Constabulary? – South Yorkshire Police
Date of the alleged offence: - 1/3/2024
Date of the NIP: - 19/4/24
Date you received the NIP: - 22/4/2024
Location of offence (exact location as it appears on the NIP: important): - A6109 Wilton Gardens at Kimberworth Road
Was the NIP addressed to you? - Yes
Was the NIP sent by first class post, second class or recorded delivery? - First
If your are not the Registered Keeper, what is your relationship to the vehicle? – Main Driver
How many current points do you have? - 0
Provide a description of events (if you know what happened) telling us as much about the incident as possible - some things that may seem trivial to you may be important, so don't leave anything out. Please do not post personal details for obvious reasons – I was being tailgated by the driver of another vehicle at the time of the alleged offence. I genuinely don’t know if I did fail to comply with the red traffic light signals, it’s possible that the light was on amber and not red.
As stated, i'm not the registered keeper and having spoken to the person that is, I'm informed that they didn't receive a NIP to request or confirm details of the driver until around 6 weeks after the alleged offence.
Thanks
Are you sure "the person" is the RK? I.e. have you seen the V5C, and if so are his name and address correct? Is it possible the vehicle is leased?
Any other questions?
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Hi everyone,
I've been over to Pepipoo however it appears to be down presently so I cannot complete the NIP Wizard properly. I have used the format
NIP Details and Circumstances
What is the name of the Constabulary? – South Yorkshire Police
Date of the alleged offence: - 1/3/2024
Date of the NIP: - 19/4/24
Date you received the NIP: - 22/4/2024
Location of offence (exact location as it appears on the NIP: important): - A6109 Wilton Gardens at Kimberworth Road
Was the NIP addressed to you? - Yes
Was the NIP sent by first class post, second class or recorded delivery? - First
If your are not the Registered Keeper, what is your relationship to the vehicle? – Main Driver
How many current points do you have? - 0
Provide a description of events (if you know what happened) telling us as much about the incident as possible - some things that may seem trivial to you may be important, so don't leave anything out. Please do not post personal details for obvious reasons – I was being tailgated by the driver of another vehicle at the time of the alleged offence. I genuinely don’t know if I did fail to comply with the red traffic light signals, it’s possible that the light was on amber and not red.
As stated, i'm not the registered keeper and having spoken to the person that is, I'm informed that they didn't receive a NIP to request or confirm details of the driver until around 6 weeks after the alleged offence.
Thanks
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