Free Traffic Legal Advice
Live cases legal advice => Civil penalty charge notices (Councils, TFL and so on) => Topic started by: The Haj on April 08, 2024, 08:17:16 pm
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Hi all
Just wanted to update you. I've not had any response from the council on my appeals or notice of cancellation (after they failed to respond by 56 days). Its been 4/5 months now so assume all clear now :D
Thanks for all your help. HNY!
Best to check the status of the PCN on their website if possible.
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Hi all
Just wanted to update you. I've not had any response from the council on my appeals or notice of cancellation (after they failed to respond by 56 days). Its been 4/5 months now so assume all clear now :D
Thanks for all your help. HNY!
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E-mail is probably best, because you can get an acknowledgment, and also set it to flag-up that it has been read. If you get nowhere, you need to raise an official complaint with the council. They cannot ignore these, because if they do you can request the LGO get involved, (local government ombudsman)
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I am writing to request confirmation that the Notice to Owner
Thanks will amend.
Shall I post or email?
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I am writing to request confirmation that the Notice to Owner
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Looks like your reps have not been recorded on their system, if the last record is for them sending an NtO. so it looks like you have won. So rattle the bars of their cage again, pointing out it is <nn> days since you submitted reps and received an acknowledgment of those reps. Tell them that in accordance with the law, they must respond within 56 days, but it is now <nn> days since reps submitted.
OP, IMO we're beyond a reply now assuming that the reps were correctly formatted, made by the keeper or authorised person on their behalf and in time.
(7) If the enforcement authority fails to comply with the requirements specified in paragraph (4) within the 56-day period—
(a)it is deemed for the purposes of these Regulations to have accepted the representations made by the recipient, and
(b)it must—
(i)cancel the relevant enforcement notice,
(ii)refund any sum paid in relation to it, and
(iii)serve a notice on the recipient informing the recipient that the enforcement notice has been cancelled because the enforcement authority failed to serve a decision notice in accordance with paragraph (4)(b).
Simply write, state that you are waiting for the authority to comply with regulation 6(7) of the Appeals Regs. confirming that the NTO has been cancelled by virtue of the authority having failed to respond to representations made on ***, copy enclosed.
Hi - Could you please review if this is okay and if so, should it be posted or sent via email to the same appeals email address? Thanks!
Dear Sir/Madam,
Subject: Confirmation of Cancellation of NTO for PCN AO00675318
I am writing to confirm that the Notice to Owner (NTO) for PCN AO00675318 has been cancelled by virtue of the enforcement authority's failure to respond to the representations I made on 29/04/24, a copy of which is enclosed along with the acknowledgement.
In accordance with regulation 6(7) of the Appeals Regulations, the authority is required to comply as follows:
(7) If the enforcement authority fails to comply with the requirements specified in paragraph (4) within the 56-day period—
(a) it is deemed for the purposes of these Regulations to have accepted the representations made by the recipient, and
(b) it must—
(i) cancel the relevant enforcement notice,
(ii) refund any sum paid in relation to it, and
(iii) serve a notice on the recipient informing the recipient that the enforcement notice has been cancelled because the enforcement authority failed to serve a decision notice in accordance with paragraph (4)(b).
As the enforcement authority has not responded within the specified 56-day period, the NTO is deemed cancelled, and I request written confirmation of this cancellation.
Thank you for your attention to this matter.
Yours faithfully,
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Hi there, just checked online and status is "NTO/Enf. Notice Sent".. can't see any other comments about the appeal etc..
You've removed the PCN and the NTO so without the Vehicle reg and PCN number we can't check for ourselves. You should reinstate the documents as per the instructions in the READ THIS FIRST - sticky post at the top of the forum. In case this case goes further.
For now make sure you get a screen shot of the case progression history that you see online. Keep it safe. And keep safe the email receipt you received previously.
Does the history mention the receipt of a representation? Please post up all of the progression history.
Hi, sorry not sure why the links aren't working, will check. However I have the screen shot of the page and I also have a copy of the representation email acknowledgment. I have linked both below
Thanks
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1yAj5t4TCRmaIZ8Q380w8AXj7Np4JZTlt/view?usp=sharing
https://drive.google.com/file/d/13Tedt4xacLVawpHSPCwRHR9EPFdd2ts5/view?usp=sharing
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Thank you for all your feed back. I will draft up a response this weekend and post here for review if that's ok.
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Hi there, just checked online and status is "NTO/Enf. Notice Sent".. can't see any other comments about the appeal etc..
You've removed the PCN and the NTO so without the Vehicle reg and PCN number we can't check for ourselves. You should reinstate the documents as per the instructions in the READ THIS FIRST - sticky post at the top of the forum. In case this case goes further.
For now make sure you get a screen shot of the case progression history that you see online. Keep it safe. And keep safe the email receipt you received previously.
Does the history mention the receipt of a representation? Please post up all of the progression history.
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OP, IMO we're beyond a reply now assuming that the reps were correctly formatted, made by the keeper or authorised person on their behalf and in time.
(7) If the enforcement authority fails to comply with the requirements specified in paragraph (4) within the 56-day period—
(a)it is deemed for the purposes of these Regulations to have accepted the representations made by the recipient, and
(b)it must—
(i)cancel the relevant enforcement notice,
(ii)refund any sum paid in relation to it, and
(iii)serve a notice on the recipient informing the recipient that the enforcement notice has been cancelled because the enforcement authority failed to serve a decision notice in accordance with paragraph (4)(b).
Simply write, state that you are waiting for the authority to comply with regulation 6(7) of the Appeals Regs. confirming that the NTO has been cancelled by virtue of the authority having failed to respond to representations made on ***, copy enclosed.
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Looks like your reps have not been recorded on their system, if the last record is for them sending an NtO. so it looks like you have won. So rattle the bars of their cage again, pointing out it is <nn> days since you submitted reps and received an acknowledgment of those reps. Tell them that in accordance with the law, they must respond within 56 days, but it is now <nn> days since reps submitted.
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Check the status of the PCN on their website. Until we know the situation, it's difficult to give advice. Sometimes councils can be really dilatory in responding to reps, but this works to your advantage, as failure to act in a timely manner can be considered an abuse of process. Councils are under a duty to act fairly and at the moment this is into unfairness territory.
Hi there, just checked online and status is "NTO/Enf. Notice Sent".. can't see any other comments about the appeal etc..
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Check the status of the PCN on their website. Until we know the situation, it's difficult to give advice. Sometimes councils can be really dilatory in responding to reps, but this works to your advantage, as failure to act in a timely manner can be considered an abuse of process. Councils are under a duty to act fairly and at the moment this is into unfairness territory.
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Hi all
Just giving this a bump.. would appreciate any advice on next steps..
Many thanks
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Has the RK received a response?
Other than the automatic email response acknowledging the appeal and subsequent follow up, no "actual" response has been received
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Has the RK received a response?
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Hi all ,
Still no word from Ealing Council, follow up was sent on 17th June and initial appeal sent 29th April. This is odd no?
I also appealed a second PCN which they haven't responded to yet either, but still have a week left on that for a response within 30 days but looks unlikely.. have they closed down or something?!!
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So I emailed my appeal to Ealing Council on 29th April. I immediately got a response advising that they have received it and to expect a reply within 30 days..
Pl confirm you enclosed a letter of authorisation from the registered keeper.
Yes i enclosed that also..
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So I emailed my appeal to Ealing Council on 29th April. I immediately got a response advising that they have received it and to expect a reply within 30 days..
Pl confirm you enclosed a letter of authorisation from the registered keeper.
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If you chased on the 17th I'd wait at least 2 / 3 weeks before chasing again.
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At this point there's no harm in chasing a response. If you don't get anywhere, we can go down the formal complaint route.
Hi cp8759,
Thanks for the response
I just noticed that i actually chased them up already on the 17th June... no response to that of course. Is it worth another chaser email?
Not sure what is going on with them..
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At this point there's no harm in chasing a response. If you don't get anywhere, we can go down the formal complaint route.
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So we're on the 57th day and still no response.. what do you guys suggest from here?
Thanks
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Legally they have 56 calendar days to serve a response.
Thanks.. Monday will be 56 days..
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Legally they have 56 calendar days to serve a response.
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Hi all, quick update on this..
So I emailed my appeal to Ealing Council on 29th April. I immediately got a response advising that they have received it and to expect a reply within 30 days..
So here we are mid-June, over 40 days since the email and still nothing back. Should i follow up or leave it be? Is there time limit to these things?
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@The Haj do not include this!
The last thing you want to do is warn them now of the flaws in their evidence, as they could just send someone round to get a better picture. This sort of argument must always be kept in reserve for the tribunal hearing, where you can bring it up and it's too late for the council to do anything about it.
Okay thanks, will remove that part
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2. Evidence Inconclusive due to Image Quality:
Upon reviewing the images provided by the Civil Enforcement Officer (CEO), it is evident that the terms and conditions board, crucial for determining the legality of parking, is depicted in an unreadable and blurry manner. This lack of clarity raises significant doubts regarding the accuracy and reliability of the evidence presented. Without clear and legible evidence, it is unjust to uphold the Penalty Charge Notice.
@The Haj do not include this!
The last thing you want to do is warn them now of the flaws in their evidence, as they could just send someone round to get a better picture. This sort of argument must always be kept in reserve for the tribunal hearing, where you can bring it up and it's too late for the council to do anything about it.
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Change "kindly urge" to " therefore request". Apart from that, it looks OK. You'll need a separate letter from the keeper authorising you to act on his behalf. You could send this as a pdf file attachment.
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Hi all, thanks for all your input so far. Here's a draft of the representation. Any feedback would be appreciated and changes required welcomed. Also as i need this switched from my dads to my name is that something i can request on here or only on a separate letter sent to the council prior to making the representation?
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Parking Services
Ealing Council
Perceval House
14-16 Uxbridge Road
Ealing
W5 2HL
Dear Sir/Madam,
Re: Penalty Charge Notice No. [PCN Number]
Vehicle Registration: [Your Vehicle Registration Number]
Date of Contravention: [Date of Contravention]
I am writing to contest the Penalty Charge Notice issued to me regarding the above-referenced incident. Despite my previous correspondence outlining the circumstances surrounding the alleged contravention, I am disappointed to receive your notice of decline of challenge. I respectfully request a reconsideration of this matter based on the following points:
1. Reasonableness of Time for Payment:
It is well-established that reasonable time must be allowed for the payment of parking fees to ensure compliance with regulations. In my case, I encountered technical difficulties with the PayByPhone app, which prevented me from completing the transaction promptly. Despite repeated attempts, the app continued to malfunction, leading to a delay in securing parking payment. The time taken to resolve this issue was reasonable given the circumstances. Denying this reasonable time allowance would render it impossible for any individual to park legally, undermining the fundamental purpose of parking regulations.
2. Evidence Inconclusive due to Image Quality:
Upon reviewing the images provided by the Civil Enforcement Officer (CEO), it is evident that the terms and conditions board, crucial for determining the legality of parking, is depicted in an unreadable and blurry manner. This lack of clarity raises significant doubts regarding the accuracy and reliability of the evidence presented. Without clear and legible evidence, it is unjust to uphold the Penalty Charge Notice.
3. Interpretation of "Soon Enough" for Payment:
The assertion that payment must be made "immediately after parking" lacks specificity and fails to account for real-world scenarios. The term "soon enough" is subjective and open to interpretation. In my case, I successfully completed the payment transaction within a reasonable timeframe following my arrival at the parking location. Moreover, I had paid for the full day's parking, indicating a genuine intention to comply with parking regulations. Analogously, if a physical ticket machine were to have a queue resulting in a delay in obtaining a ticket, such delays would be accommodated within the framework of reasonable time allowances.
In light of the aforementioned points, I kindly urge the council to reconsider its decision and revoke the Penalty Charge Notice. I remain committed to resolving this matter amicably and trust that a fair and just outcome will be reached.
I would appreciate your prompt attention to this matter and look forward to your favorable response.
Yours sincerely,
Hi all, just bumping this up. Would really appreciate some feedback to the draft when possible.
Many thanks
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Hi all, thanks for all your input so far. Here's a draft of the representation. Any feedback would be appreciated and changes required welcomed. Also as i need this switched from my dads to my name is that something i can request on here or only on a separate letter sent to the council prior to making the representation?
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Parking Services
Ealing Council
Perceval House
14-16 Uxbridge Road
Ealing
W5 2HL
Dear Sir/Madam,
Re: Penalty Charge Notice No. [PCN Number]
Vehicle Registration: [Your Vehicle Registration Number]
Date of Contravention: [Date of Contravention]
I am writing to contest the Penalty Charge Notice issued to me regarding the above-referenced incident. Despite my previous correspondence outlining the circumstances surrounding the alleged contravention, I am disappointed to receive your notice of decline of challenge. I respectfully request a reconsideration of this matter based on the following points:
1. Reasonableness of Time for Payment:
It is well-established that reasonable time must be allowed for the payment of parking fees to ensure compliance with regulations. In my case, I encountered technical difficulties with the PayByPhone app, which prevented me from completing the transaction promptly. Despite repeated attempts, the app continued to malfunction, leading to a delay in securing parking payment. The time taken to resolve this issue was reasonable given the circumstances. Denying this reasonable time allowance would render it impossible for any individual to park legally, undermining the fundamental purpose of parking regulations.
2. Evidence Inconclusive due to Image Quality:
Upon reviewing the images provided by the Civil Enforcement Officer (CEO), it is evident that the terms and conditions board, crucial for determining the legality of parking, is depicted in an unreadable and blurry manner. This lack of clarity raises significant doubts regarding the accuracy and reliability of the evidence presented. Without clear and legible evidence, it is unjust to uphold the Penalty Charge Notice.
3. Interpretation of "Soon Enough" for Payment:
The assertion that payment must be made "immediately after parking" lacks specificity and fails to account for real-world scenarios. The term "soon enough" is subjective and open to interpretation. In my case, I successfully completed the payment transaction within a reasonable timeframe following my arrival at the parking location. Moreover, I had paid for the full day's parking, indicating a genuine intention to comply with parking regulations. Analogously, if a physical ticket machine were to have a queue resulting in a delay in obtaining a ticket, such delays would be accommodated within the framework of reasonable time allowances.
In light of the aforementioned points, I kindly urge the council to reconsider its decision and revoke the Penalty Charge Notice. I remain committed to resolving this matter amicably and trust that a fair and just outcome will be reached.
I would appreciate your prompt attention to this matter and look forward to your favorable response.
Yours sincerely,
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A bit of a search around should give you some ideas. Put a draft up for comment.
This way you tend to get a better understanding of the arguments being used ready for adjudicarion if necessary.
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You just need a letter signed by him authorising you to act then you can make representations against the NTO to the council and appeal to the tribunal if required
Thanks will do.
Is there a template i can refer to with regards appealing the NTO? Want to ensure i cover all points and word it correctly
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You just need a letter signed by him authorising you to act then you can make representations against the NTO to the council and appeal to the tribunal if required
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Your Dad retains payment or appeal responsibility, but can authorise you (by letter) to act on his behalf, but if the case is lost, payment is his responsibility.
So, having got the NtO, you can now either give up and cough-up, or submit a formal representation, and if refused, take them to London Tribunals. This means that the full PCN penalty will be in play, although they may re-offer it if/when they refuse those reps.
Essentially, it is all down to whether your father wants to risk the full penalty. I'm sure if you tell him you will pay the full penalty if needs be, he'll agree to you fighting this all the way.
Payment i can arrange that with him, only concern is if there is a possibility of him having to make representations as the owner/keeper anywhere i,e, court etc, he's quite elderly so want to keep him out of it. If its just getting letters under his name thats ok.
With regards the formal representation, is there a template on the forum that would be helpful to use in my case?
Thanks
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Your Dad retains payment or appeal responsibility, but can authorise you (by letter) to act on his behalf, but if the case is lost, payment is his responsibility.
So, having got the NtO, you can now either give up and cough-up, or submit a formal representation, and if refused, take them to London Tribunals. This means that the full PCN penalty will be in play, although they may re-offer it if/when they refuse those reps.
Essentially, it is all down to whether your father wants to risk the full penalty. I'm sure if you tell him you will pay the full penalty if needs be, he'll agree to you fighting this all the way.
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Looking at their letter, I think I would be very strongly tempted to take them all the way to adjudication. They say you didn't pay soon enough; so what is "soon enough" ? The plain fact of the matter is you paid for the full day, but had problems getting their chosen PbP app to work. As I said before, time is allowed to pay. What if the ticket machine had a queue of 10 people waiting to pay so it took 10 minutes to get a ticket ? They are doing what all councils do nowadays, sending a Fob-Off letter in response to informal reps, knowing 95% of people then cough-up.
So, if you take them all the way, are you the registered keeper, because the next stage is they send a Notice to Owner to the name and address on the V5C Registration Certificate ?
Please, if possible, also post up your representations to them.
Absolutely fair points there, thank you.
My Dad is the registered keeper and we've already received the NTK which i linked on my second post, is that what you meant by NTO? Also is there a way I can divert this to my name to remove my Dad from any potential headache?
With regards to the representations, only time i made these was the online appeal and I don't have a copy of that unfortunately. Rightly or wrongly (guessing the latter) I outlined the incident as above.
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Looking at their letter, I think I would be very strongly tempted to take them all the way to adjudication. They say you didn't pay soon enough; so what is "soon enough" ? The plain fact of the matter is you paid for the full day, but had problems getting their chosen PbP app to work. As I said before, time is allowed to pay. What if the ticket machine had a queue of 10 people waiting to pay so it took 10 minutes to get a ticket ? They are doing what all councils do nowadays, sending a Fob-Off letter in response to informal reps, knowing 95% of people then cough-up.
So, if you take them all the way, are you the registered keeper, because the next stage is they send a Notice to Owner to the name and address on the V5C Registration Certificate ?
Please, if possible, also post up your representations to them.
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Hi there - Unfortunately don't have screenshots. Unsure what app logs are and where to obtain?
Well I would start by asking the app company, they might have some sort of record.
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Incident details:
Parked and walked to the office while attempting to pay on Pay by Phone app but kept crashing.
What evidence do you have on this, screenshot? App logs?
Also, can you reproduce the problem?
Lydia Russo v Plymouth City Council (PL00004-2401, 12 March 2024) (https://drive.google.com/file/d/1WW83Desv43qE8aviq2wez1KRsivNCqME/view) is a case that comes to mind.
Lastly the CEO's images do not prove any contravention as the terms and conditions board is unreadable:
(https://i.imgur.com/144lVrL.png)
Hi there - Unfortunately don't have screenshots. Unsure what app logs are and where to obtain?
I have probably used that car park once since then and the app worked fine that day so haven't experienced a reoccurrence to date.
BTW thank you for sharing that case. Will have a read through.
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You need to open-up the Google Drive links.
First thing to say is that time is always allowed for payment of the parking fee. If it wasn't nobody could possibly park legally ! YOu have to convince them, or more likely the adjudicators, that the time you took to obtain payment was reasonable in the circumstances.
So, can you tell us why you left the car park before paying ? This is usually not good practice, because if a wandering CEO happens by and you aren't there by the car phone in hand trying to pay, a PCN is almost inevitable. I use PayByPhone a lot where I live, and I always pay when I'm in the car having parked. I have ocasionally experienced the app not being available, so have paid at the ticket machine instead.
Be aware also that normal council responses to virtually all informal challenges to a paper PCN served to the car is to send a Fob-Off letter, so please post this up as well.
Apologies, links google opened now. Declined challenge letter from the council also linked here: https://drive.google.com/file/d/1VKXT8lZskquCBPbge43eclErcGJiD1v6/view?usp=sharing
To answer your question, I'm a regular user of the car park when i drive to work so I'm familiar with the PBP app and process usually takes up to 1 min. I was in a hurry that day so parked and thought i'd save time and pay while walking to the office but ended up taking about 15 minutes to pay.
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Incident details:
Parked and walked to the office while attempting to pay on Pay by Phone app but kept crashing.
What evidence do you have on this, screenshot? App logs?
Also, can you reproduce the problem?
Lydia Russo v Plymouth City Council (PL00004-2401, 12 March 2024) (https://drive.google.com/file/d/1WW83Desv43qE8aviq2wez1KRsivNCqME/view) is a case that comes to mind.
Lastly the CEO's images do not prove any contravention as the terms and conditions board is unreadable:
(https://i.imgur.com/144lVrL.png)
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You need to open-up the Google Drive links.
First thing to say is that time is always allowed for payment of the parking fee. If it wasn't nobody could possibly park legally ! YOu have to convince them, or more likely the adjudicators, that the time you took to obtain payment was reasonable in the circumstances.
So, can you tell us why you left the car park before paying ? This is usually not good practice, because if a wandering CEO happens by and you aren't there by the car phone in hand trying to pay, a PCN is almost inevitable. I use PayByPhone a lot where I live, and I always pay when I'm in the car having parked. I have ocasionally experienced the app not being available, so have paid at the ticket machine instead.
Be aware also that normal council responses to virtually all informal challenges to a paper PCN served to the car is to send a Fob-Off letter, so please post this up as well.
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Hi all,
After some assistance with Ealing Council. I read through the initial post requirements so please note details below. I have tried to be as thorough as possible but also to the point. Thank you in advance for any help or guidance you can offer and do let me know if you require any further info (i hope the links below work)
Alleged contravention: parked without displaying valid ticket or parking clock
Location: spring ridge road multi storey car park
Incident details:
Parked and walked to the office while attempting to pay on Pay by Phone app but kept crashing. Not sure if it was the app or my phone by i attempted a few times and finally managed to pay about 10 to 15 minutes after initially parking. Paid parking started at 9.59am which covered me for the full day until 6pm. I discovered PCN had been issued on windscreen upon leaving later that evening, PCN issued at 9.49am, so minutes after i had left the car and began walking to work. The grounds of my appeal were based on the app difficulties and that I had paid for a full days stay, but this was rejected and they didn’t even offer to refund. I was provided 14 or 28 days to pay which I didn’t and have received a NTK letter for full payment or challenge the PCN to Ealing council.
PCN link:
https://drive.google.com/file/d/19O9oLXmtdr5V_8cWSx8-AAaucB_6IQW9/view?usp=sharing
NTK link:
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1PB5AnSFs36WRqKgaGxPlZh_fwQClHQHA/view?usp=sharing
Google Maps link:
https://maps.app.goo.gl/pzk3MwAZXXbNH2fj8