Author Topic: Ealing Council - PCN appeal rejected - NTK received  (Read 1673 times)

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The Haj

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Ealing Council - PCN appeal rejected - NTK received
« on: April 08, 2024, 08:17:16 pm »
Hi all,

After some assistance with Ealing Council. I read through the initial post requirements so please note details below. I have tried to be as thorough as possible but also to the point. Thank you in advance for any help or guidance you can offer and do let me know if you require any further info (i hope the links below work)



Alleged contravention: parked without displaying valid ticket or parking clock
Location: spring ridge road multi storey car park



Incident details:
Parked and walked to the office while attempting to pay on Pay by Phone app but kept crashing. Not sure if it was the app or my phone by i attempted a few times and finally managed to pay about 10 to 15 minutes after initially parking. Paid parking started at 9.59am which covered me for the full day until 6pm. I discovered PCN had been issued on windscreen upon leaving later that evening, PCN issued at 9.49am, so minutes after i had left the car and began walking to work. The grounds of my appeal were based on the app difficulties and that I had paid for a full days stay, but this was rejected and they didn’t even offer to refund. I was provided 14 or 28 days to pay which I didn’t and have received a NTK letter for full payment or challenge the PCN to Ealing council.



PCN link:
https://drive.google.com/file/d/19O9oLXmtdr5V_8cWSx8-AAaucB_6IQW9/view?usp=sharing



NTK link:
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1PB5AnSFs36WRqKgaGxPlZh_fwQClHQHA/view?usp=sharing



Google Maps link:
https://maps.app.goo.gl/pzk3MwAZXXbNH2fj8

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Incandescent

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Re: Ealing Council - PCN appeal rejected - NTK received
« Reply #1 on: April 08, 2024, 10:12:02 pm »
You need to open-up the Google Drive links.

First thing to say is that time is always allowed for payment of the parking fee. If it wasn't nobody could possibly park legally ! YOu have to convince them, or more likely the adjudicators, that the time you took to obtain payment was reasonable in the circumstances.

So, can you tell us why you left the car park before paying ? This is usually not good practice, because if a wandering CEO happens by and you aren't there by the car phone in hand trying to pay, a PCN is almost inevitable.  I use PayByPhone a lot where I live, and I always pay when I'm in the car having parked. I have ocasionally experienced the app not being available, so have paid at the ticket machine instead. 

Be aware also that normal council responses to virtually all informal challenges to a paper PCN served to the car is to send a Fob-Off letter, so please post this up as well.

cp8759

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Re: Ealing Council - PCN appeal rejected - NTK received
« Reply #2 on: April 08, 2024, 10:54:11 pm »
Incident details:
Parked and walked to the office while attempting to pay on Pay by Phone app but kept crashing.
What evidence do you have on this, screenshot? App logs?

Also, can you reproduce the problem?

Lydia Russo v Plymouth City Council (PL00004-2401, 12 March 2024) is a case that comes to mind.

Lastly the CEO's images do not prove any contravention as the terms and conditions board is unreadable:

« Last Edit: April 08, 2024, 10:59:18 pm by cp8759 »
I practice law in the Traffic Penalty Tribunal, London Tribunals, the First-tier tribunal for Scotland, and the Traffic Penalty Tribunal for Northern Ireland, but I am not a solicitor nor a barrister. Notwithstanding this, I voluntarily apply the cab rank rule. I am a member of the Society of Professional McKenzie Friends, my membership number is FM193.

Quote from: 'Gumph' date='Thu, 19 Jan 2023 - 10:23'
cp8759 is, indeed, a Wizard of the First Order

The Haj

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Re: Ealing Council - PCN appeal rejected - NTK received
« Reply #3 on: April 08, 2024, 11:05:22 pm »
You need to open-up the Google Drive links.

First thing to say is that time is always allowed for payment of the parking fee. If it wasn't nobody could possibly park legally ! YOu have to convince them, or more likely the adjudicators, that the time you took to obtain payment was reasonable in the circumstances.

So, can you tell us why you left the car park before paying ? This is usually not good practice, because if a wandering CEO happens by and you aren't there by the car phone in hand trying to pay, a PCN is almost inevitable.  I use PayByPhone a lot where I live, and I always pay when I'm in the car having parked. I have ocasionally experienced the app not being available, so have paid at the ticket machine instead. 

Be aware also that normal council responses to virtually all informal challenges to a paper PCN served to the car is to send a Fob-Off letter, so please post this up as well.



Apologies, links google opened now. Declined challenge letter from the council also linked here: https://drive.google.com/file/d/1VKXT8lZskquCBPbge43eclErcGJiD1v6/view?usp=sharing

To answer your question, I'm a regular user of the car park when i drive to work so I'm familiar with the PBP app and process usually takes up to 1 min. I was in a hurry that day so parked and thought i'd save time and pay while walking to the office but ended up taking about 15 minutes to pay.
« Last Edit: April 08, 2024, 11:10:30 pm by The Haj »

The Haj

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Re: Ealing Council - PCN appeal rejected - NTK received
« Reply #4 on: April 08, 2024, 11:09:14 pm »
Incident details:
Parked and walked to the office while attempting to pay on Pay by Phone app but kept crashing.
What evidence do you have on this, screenshot? App logs?

Also, can you reproduce the problem?

Lydia Russo v Plymouth City Council (PL00004-2401, 12 March 2024) is a case that comes to mind.

Lastly the CEO's images do not prove any contravention as the terms and conditions board is unreadable:



Hi there - Unfortunately don't have screenshots. Unsure what app logs are and where to obtain?

I have probably used that car park once since then and the app worked fine that day so haven't experienced a reoccurrence to date.

BTW thank you for sharing that case. Will have a read through.
« Last Edit: April 08, 2024, 11:15:04 pm by The Haj »

cp8759

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Re: Ealing Council - PCN appeal rejected - NTK received
« Reply #5 on: April 08, 2024, 11:33:55 pm »
Hi there - Unfortunately don't have screenshots. Unsure what app logs are and where to obtain?
Well I would start by asking the app company, they might have some sort of record.
I practice law in the Traffic Penalty Tribunal, London Tribunals, the First-tier tribunal for Scotland, and the Traffic Penalty Tribunal for Northern Ireland, but I am not a solicitor nor a barrister. Notwithstanding this, I voluntarily apply the cab rank rule. I am a member of the Society of Professional McKenzie Friends, my membership number is FM193.

Quote from: 'Gumph' date='Thu, 19 Jan 2023 - 10:23'
cp8759 is, indeed, a Wizard of the First Order

Incandescent

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Re: Ealing Council - PCN appeal rejected - NTK received
« Reply #6 on: April 09, 2024, 10:00:24 am »
Looking at their letter, I think I would be very strongly tempted to take them all the way to adjudication. They say you didn't pay soon enough; so what is "soon enough" ? The plain fact of the matter is you paid for the full day, but had problems getting their chosen PbP app to work. As I said before, time is allowed to pay. What if the ticket machine had a queue of 10 people waiting to pay so it took 10 minutes to get a ticket ? They are doing what all councils do nowadays, sending a Fob-Off letter in response to informal reps, knowing 95% of people then cough-up.

So, if you take them all the way, are you the registered keeper, because the next stage is they send a Notice to Owner to the name and address on the V5C Registration Certificate ?

Please, if possible, also post up your representations to them.

The Haj

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Re: Ealing Council - PCN appeal rejected - NTK received
« Reply #7 on: April 09, 2024, 07:58:42 pm »
Looking at their letter, I think I would be very strongly tempted to take them all the way to adjudication. They say you didn't pay soon enough; so what is "soon enough" ? The plain fact of the matter is you paid for the full day, but had problems getting their chosen PbP app to work. As I said before, time is allowed to pay. What if the ticket machine had a queue of 10 people waiting to pay so it took 10 minutes to get a ticket ? They are doing what all councils do nowadays, sending a Fob-Off letter in response to informal reps, knowing 95% of people then cough-up.

So, if you take them all the way, are you the registered keeper, because the next stage is they send a Notice to Owner to the name and address on the V5C Registration Certificate ?

Please, if possible, also post up your representations to them.

Absolutely fair points there, thank you.

My Dad is the registered keeper and we've already received the NTK which i linked on my second post, is that what you meant by NTO?  Also is there a way I can divert this to my name to remove my Dad from any potential headache?

With regards to the representations, only time i made these was the online appeal and I don't have a copy of that unfortunately. Rightly or wrongly (guessing the latter) I outlined the incident as above.

Incandescent

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Re: Ealing Council - PCN appeal rejected - NTK received
« Reply #8 on: April 09, 2024, 09:40:41 pm »
Your Dad retains payment or appeal responsibility, but can authorise you (by letter) to act on his behalf, but if the case is lost, payment is his responsibility.

So, having got the NtO, you can now either give up and cough-up, or submit a formal representation, and if refused, take them to London Tribunals. This means that the full PCN penalty will be in play, although they may re-offer it if/when they refuse those reps.

Essentially, it is all down to whether your father wants to risk the full penalty. I'm sure if you tell him you will pay the full penalty if needs be, he'll agree to you fighting this all the way.

The Haj

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Re: Ealing Council - PCN appeal rejected - NTK received
« Reply #9 on: April 10, 2024, 09:43:54 am »
Your Dad retains payment or appeal responsibility, but can authorise you (by letter) to act on his behalf, but if the case is lost, payment is his responsibility.

So, having got the NtO, you can now either give up and cough-up, or submit a formal representation, and if refused, take them to London Tribunals. This means that the full PCN penalty will be in play, although they may re-offer it if/when they refuse those reps.

Essentially, it is all down to whether your father wants to risk the full penalty. I'm sure if you tell him you will pay the full penalty if needs be, he'll agree to you fighting this all the way.

Payment i can arrange that with him, only concern is if there is a possibility of him having to make representations as the owner/keeper anywhere i,e, court etc, he's quite elderly so want to keep him out of it. If its just getting letters under his name thats ok.

With regards the formal representation, is there a template on the forum that would be helpful to use in my case?

Thanks

Pastmybest

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Re: Ealing Council - PCN appeal rejected - NTK received
« Reply #10 on: April 10, 2024, 10:34:11 am »
You just need a letter signed by him authorising you to act then you can make representations against the NTO to the council and appeal to the tribunal if required

The Haj

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Re: Ealing Council - PCN appeal rejected - NTK received
« Reply #11 on: April 12, 2024, 11:34:34 am »
You just need a letter signed by him authorising you to act then you can make representations against the NTO to the council and appeal to the tribunal if required

Thanks will do.

Is there a template i can refer to with regards appealing the NTO? Want to ensure i cover all points and word it correctly

slapdash

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Re: Ealing Council - PCN appeal rejected - NTK received
« Reply #12 on: April 12, 2024, 04:51:47 pm »
A bit of a search around should give you some ideas. Put a draft up for comment.

This way you tend to get a better understanding of the arguments being used ready for adjudicarion if necessary.

The Haj

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Re: Ealing Council - PCN appeal rejected - NTK received
« Reply #13 on: April 13, 2024, 02:34:35 pm »
Hi all, thanks for all your input so far. Here's a draft of the representation. Any feedback would be appreciated and changes required welcomed. Also as i need this switched from my dads to my name is that something i can request on here or only on a separate letter sent to the council prior to making the representation?

---

Parking Services
Ealing Council
Perceval House
14-16 Uxbridge Road
Ealing
W5 2HL

Dear Sir/Madam,

Re: Penalty Charge Notice No. [PCN Number]
Vehicle Registration: [Your Vehicle Registration Number]
Date of Contravention: [Date of Contravention]

I am writing to contest the Penalty Charge Notice issued to me regarding the above-referenced incident. Despite my previous correspondence outlining the circumstances surrounding the alleged contravention, I am disappointed to receive your notice of decline of challenge. I respectfully request a reconsideration of this matter based on the following points:

1. Reasonableness of Time for Payment:
   It is well-established that reasonable time must be allowed for the payment of parking fees to ensure compliance with regulations. In my case, I encountered technical difficulties with the PayByPhone app, which prevented me from completing the transaction promptly. Despite repeated attempts, the app continued to malfunction, leading to a delay in securing parking payment. The time taken to resolve this issue was reasonable given the circumstances. Denying this reasonable time allowance would render it impossible for any individual to park legally, undermining the fundamental purpose of parking regulations.

2. Evidence Inconclusive due to Image Quality:
   Upon reviewing the images provided by the Civil Enforcement Officer (CEO), it is evident that the terms and conditions board, crucial for determining the legality of parking, is depicted in an unreadable and blurry manner. This lack of clarity raises significant doubts regarding the accuracy and reliability of the evidence presented. Without clear and legible evidence, it is unjust to uphold the Penalty Charge Notice.

3. Interpretation of "Soon Enough" for Payment:
   The assertion that payment must be made "immediately after parking" lacks specificity and fails to account for real-world scenarios. The term "soon enough" is subjective and open to interpretation. In my case, I successfully completed the payment transaction within a reasonable timeframe following my arrival at the parking location. Moreover, I had paid for the full day's parking, indicating a genuine intention to comply with parking regulations. Analogously, if a physical ticket machine were to have a queue resulting in a delay in obtaining a ticket, such delays would be accommodated within the framework of reasonable time allowances.

In light of the aforementioned points, I kindly urge the council to reconsider its decision and revoke the Penalty Charge Notice. I remain committed to resolving this matter amicably and trust that a fair and just outcome will be reached.

I would appreciate your prompt attention to this matter and look forward to your favorable response.

Yours sincerely,



The Haj

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Re: Ealing Council - PCN appeal rejected - NTK received
« Reply #14 on: April 16, 2024, 07:54:35 pm »
Hi all, thanks for all your input so far. Here's a draft of the representation. Any feedback would be appreciated and changes required welcomed. Also as i need this switched from my dads to my name is that something i can request on here or only on a separate letter sent to the council prior to making the representation?

---

Parking Services
Ealing Council
Perceval House
14-16 Uxbridge Road
Ealing
W5 2HL

Dear Sir/Madam,

Re: Penalty Charge Notice No. [PCN Number]
Vehicle Registration: [Your Vehicle Registration Number]
Date of Contravention: [Date of Contravention]

I am writing to contest the Penalty Charge Notice issued to me regarding the above-referenced incident. Despite my previous correspondence outlining the circumstances surrounding the alleged contravention, I am disappointed to receive your notice of decline of challenge. I respectfully request a reconsideration of this matter based on the following points:

1. Reasonableness of Time for Payment:
  It is well-established that reasonable time must be allowed for the payment of parking fees to ensure compliance with regulations. In my case, I encountered technical difficulties with the PayByPhone app, which prevented me from completing the transaction promptly. Despite repeated attempts, the app continued to malfunction, leading to a delay in securing parking payment. The time taken to resolve this issue was reasonable given the circumstances. Denying this reasonable time allowance would render it impossible for any individual to park legally, undermining the fundamental purpose of parking regulations.

2. Evidence Inconclusive due to Image Quality:
  Upon reviewing the images provided by the Civil Enforcement Officer (CEO), it is evident that the terms and conditions board, crucial for determining the legality of parking, is depicted in an unreadable and blurry manner. This lack of clarity raises significant doubts regarding the accuracy and reliability of the evidence presented. Without clear and legible evidence, it is unjust to uphold the Penalty Charge Notice.

3. Interpretation of "Soon Enough" for Payment:
  The assertion that payment must be made "immediately after parking" lacks specificity and fails to account for real-world scenarios. The term "soon enough" is subjective and open to interpretation. In my case, I successfully completed the payment transaction within a reasonable timeframe following my arrival at the parking location. Moreover, I had paid for the full day's parking, indicating a genuine intention to comply with parking regulations. Analogously, if a physical ticket machine were to have a queue resulting in a delay in obtaining a ticket, such delays would be accommodated within the framework of reasonable time allowances.

In light of the aforementioned points, I kindly urge the council to reconsider its decision and revoke the Penalty Charge Notice. I remain committed to resolving this matter amicably and trust that a fair and just outcome will be reached.

I would appreciate your prompt attention to this matter and look forward to your favorable response.

Yours sincerely,



Hi all, just bumping this up. Would really appreciate some feedback to the draft when possible.

Many thanks