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Live cases legal advice => Civil penalty charge notices (Councils, TFL and so on) => Topic started by: towedaway26 on April 01, 2024, 09:06:09 pm

Title: Re: Waltham Forest, suspended parking bay, PCN/towing
Post by: cp8759 on September 11, 2024, 06:02:23 pm
DNC'ed.
Title: Re: Waltham Forest, suspended parking bay, PCN/towing
Post by: cp8759 on June 09, 2024, 06:57:11 pm
@towedaway26 well at this point you might as well appeal, as there's nothing to be lost. I'm not overly hopeful, but you can't end up any worse off by appealing so it would be very silly not to appeal. I will drop you a PM in case you would like to be represented.
Title: Re: Waltham Forest, suspended parking bay, PCN/towing
Post by: towedaway26 on June 05, 2024, 10:53:09 am
Finally heard back from Waltham Forest today, appeal was turned down which I got the impression was to be expected?  What should my next step be?

(https://i.imgur.com/BDUM8QJ.jpeg)

(https://i.imgur.com/EWzdfgS.jpeg)

(https://i.imgur.com/7DnNJgk.jpeg)

Edits due to issues getting the images to show up, I think they're all working now!
Title: Re: Waltham Forest, suspended parking bay, PCN/towing
Post by: towedaway26 on May 27, 2024, 09:40:32 pm
No worries, easily done! 

Yes I sent it on the 18th April, nothing back other than the confirmation of reciept as yet. 
Title: Re: Waltham Forest, suspended parking bay, PCN/towing
Post by: cp8759 on May 27, 2024, 09:25:41 pm
Quote from: towedaway26 on May 25, 2024, 09:59:11 pm
Yep I had to pay the PCN when I collected the car from the pound, my understanding was there isn't any other option?
Yes sorry I was indeed in a bit of a hurry and didn't spot this is a towing case, my fault for trying to catch up on a week's worth of posts in a day!

I take it representations have now been submitted?
Title: Re: Waltham Forest, suspended parking bay, PCN/towing
Post by: Incandescent on May 25, 2024, 11:02:42 pm
I think cp8759 may have been in a bit of a rush when he wrote his last post. As we all know, when a car is collected from the pound the PCN must be paid at the discounted rate when collecting the car in addition to the towing fee and and storage charges. The owner of the car then can submit representations against the PCN, indeed it is a total no-brainer to do so.
Title: Re: Waltham Forest, suspended parking bay, PCN/towing
Post by: towedaway26 on May 25, 2024, 09:59:11 pm
Yep I had to pay the PCN when I collected the car from the pound, my understanding was there isn't any other option?
Title: Re: Waltham Forest, suspended parking bay, PCN/towing
Post by: guest17 on May 20, 2024, 09:42:42 am
?????  Paid at the pound?

Mike
Title: Re: Waltham Forest, suspended parking bay, PCN/towing
Post by: cp8759 on May 20, 2024, 12:07:19 am
Quote from: towedaway26 on May 15, 2024, 11:14:26 am
Do the council have a deadline for responding to the initial appeal email?  It's almost a month now and I've not heard anything - but I realise this could be normal?
@towedaway26 it is normal but from what I see you've paid the PCN? What happened?
Title: Re: Waltham Forest, suspended parking bay, PCN/towing
Post by: towedaway26 on May 15, 2024, 11:14:26 am
Do the council have a deadline for responding to the initial appeal email?  It's almost a month now and I've not heard anything - but I realise this could be normal?
Title: Re: Waltham Forest, suspended parking bay, PCN/towing
Post by: cp8759 on April 21, 2024, 01:06:54 pm
@towedaway26 I don't think it will be detrimental so you can include it if you wish to put your view across, but it won't make any difference to the outcome.
Title: Re: Waltham Forest, suspended parking bay, PCN/towing
Post by: Incandescent on April 14, 2024, 08:25:40 pm
Morals ? Ethics ? Probity ? Are you kidding ? These people are just dessicated calculating machines !
Title: Re: Waltham Forest, suspended parking bay, PCN/towing
Post by: towedaway26 on April 14, 2024, 07:06:20 pm
Wow cp8759, I had no idea you could get so much information, thank you.  I'll send the first email tomorrow.  Unless you think it would be detrimental I would like to add something about the fact that the car was taken to the pound rather than moved to an empty space; from what I've read and has been mentioned elsewhere my understanding is that councils are encouraged to act with sensible moderation in these things.  I do realise this is moving from hard and fast legalities to the much vaguer realm of morals though!
Title: Re: Waltham Forest, suspended parking bay, PCN/towing
Post by: cp8759 on April 10, 2024, 03:27:34 pm
Parking suspension logs:

Application form:
(https://i.imgur.com/yqebnyK.png)
(https://i.imgur.com/631vttl.png)

Suspension sign installation log:
(https://i.imgur.com/KlZLlsC.png)

Suspension sign removal log:
(https://i.imgur.com/l6TKvPu.png)

VRM log:
(https://i.imgur.com/7m8H8U2.png)

Photos:
(https://i.imgur.com/Yne3Mmm.png)

(https://i.imgur.com/DjnarLK.png)

(https://i.imgur.com/NoMZRFp.png)

(https://i.imgur.com/BPgPwty.png)

(https://i.imgur.com/3AOED01.png)

(https://i.imgur.com/IhkGicO.png)

I would stick with the current draft and we can develop the arguments at the tribunal, but helpfully the evidence above shows that there was only one suspension sign.
Title: Re: Waltham Forest, suspended parking bay, PCN/towing
Post by: cp8759 on April 05, 2024, 12:07:24 am
Personally I'd wait a bit, you must not miss the deadline, but you're not in a massive rush either and you could wait till the week commencing on the 15th just in case the suspension logs come back before that.

The fact that they towed the car is not really material, once they've served the PCN they're entitled to tow the car immediately.
Title: Re: Waltham Forest, suspended parking bay, PCN/towing
Post by: towedaway26 on April 04, 2024, 04:08:51 pm
Thanks, should I send that now or give it a bit longer?  And is it worth adding in something about the fact that the car was taken to the pound rather than moved to another space on the street that it had a valid permit for? 
Title: Re: Waltham Forest, suspended parking bay, PCN/towing
Post by: cp8759 on April 03, 2024, 06:10:03 pm
Legally only the signs for the particular bay count, signs on the other side of the road or for a different bay on the same side of the road don't count, you know for next time.

Here's something you can use if we don't get the suspension logs back before the deadline:

Dear London Borough of Waltham Forest,

I would like to challenge liability for PCN FR61970085 because the alleged contravention did not occur. It appears not all signs within the vicinity of my vehicle were carrying a parking suspension sign, and I believe this partly contributed to the fact that I missed the suspension.

Furthermore I contend there has been a procedural impropriety, as the information sheet I was given does not correctly reflect the provisions of The Removal and Disposal of Vehicles Regulations 1986 as amended by The Civil Enforcement of Moving Traffic Contraventions Designations and Miscellaneous Amendments Order 2022, which in turn is a failure to comply with regulation 11(2)(a) of The Civil Enforcement of Road Traffic Contraventions (Representations and Appeals) (England) Regulations 2022.

In light of the above the penalty charge must be cancelled.

Yours faithfully,
Title: Re: Waltham Forest, suspended parking bay, PCN/towing
Post by: towedaway26 on April 03, 2024, 11:20:24 am
Quote from: cp8759 on April 03, 2024, 12:02:52 am
Did you look for any signs or did you just assume it would be OK to park?

Yes, I looked to check I'd put the correct start time on the permit - they're the sort where you scratch off the start time and date - but it was one on the opposite side of the road slightly further down the street that I looked at this time, you can just see it here:

https://maps.app.goo.gl/bLMDvSSAN7EQ8rj59
Title: Re: Waltham Forest, suspended parking bay, PCN/towing
Post by: cp8759 on April 03, 2024, 12:02:52 am
The grounds of appeal you've been given are incorrect, the 15 vs 30 minute period information was changed in May 2023 so there is only a 15 minute period now, there are also other minor issues with the grounds information.

The deadline for representations is 19 April so let's not rush but let's also make sure not to miss that. If I get the suspensions back in time I'll post them up the day I get them.

Did you look for any signs or did you just assume it would be OK to park?
Title: Re: Waltham Forest, suspended parking bay, PCN/towing
Post by: towedaway26 on April 02, 2024, 05:40:22 pm
Quote from: cp8759 on April 01, 2024, 11:30:57 pm
In which direction did you walk after you got out of the car?

Around the front to unload stuff from the passanger side, and then down the road towards the A112 end, rejoining the pavement after the planters that mark the no entry one-way stretch - so I did pass the lamppost with the sign on, albeit with parked cars between it and me. 

Quote from: Incandescent on April 02, 2024, 12:59:42 am
Being towed and having to pay a rather large sum at the pound to get the car back is one of those situations where it is a total no-brainer to appeal the matter all the way, because you've paid all there is to pay, so you are tryng to get it all back. The tow does seem disproportionate, but I think you'll struggle with the PCN, but hey, lets see what happens at London Tribunals.  You're in good hands here BTW.

That was how I viewed it, it's a nothing to lose but time sort of situation, but I've never persued an appeals process like this before. Getting the tow back but not the PCN would still count as a massive win in my book! My gripe with what I perceive to be  poor signage was in part based on my home council area who generlly mark parking suspensions with cones as well as multiple signs, but I realise now that is them being thorough rather than a requirement. If the signage is deemed adequate then I won't begrudge the PCN fee as I was, after all, parked where I shouldn't have been. 
Title: Re: Waltham Forest, suspended parking bay, PCN/towing
Post by: Incandescent on April 02, 2024, 12:59:42 am
Being towed and having to pay a rather large sum at the pound to get the car back is one of those situations where it is a total no-brainer to appeal the matter all the way, because you've paid all there is to pay, so you are tryng to get it all back. The tow does seem disproportionate, but I think you'll struggle with the PCN, but hey, lets see what happens at London Tribunals.  You're in good hands here BTW.
Title: Re: Waltham Forest, suspended parking bay, PCN/towing
Post by: cp8759 on April 01, 2024, 11:30:57 pm
We'll get evidence of where the signs were put in the first first place, so don't worry too much about that.

In which direction did you walk after you got out of the car?
Title: Re: Waltham Forest, suspended parking bay, PCN/towing
Post by: towedaway26 on April 01, 2024, 10:31:28 pm
Thank you, sorry, still getting to grips with image uploading.

I don't have any photo evidence as it didn't occur to me at the time, but I walked up and down the street several times in the daylight the following day and did not see a second sign outside number 32 - and I was looking by that point!  Believe me I've kicked myself repeatedly for not noticing the one behind the car (the angled photo in daylight makes it look especially bad!).  It's a poor excuse I know, but we arrived in the dark after a 3 hour drive and, having parked on the street many times before I know the permit schedule so didn't specifically look at the signs.  Not a mistake I'll ever make again, if nothing else.
Title: Re: Waltham Forest, suspended parking bay, PCN/towing
Post by: cp8759 on April 01, 2024, 09:50:59 pm
Well let's start by turning the PCN the right way round:

(https://i.imgur.com/4qsEEC4.png)

Unfortunately there was a sign right behind your car:

(https://i.imgur.com/rum0k2r.png)

(https://i.imgur.com/M7jfbUT.png)

Was there one here? https://maps.app.goo.gl/GRAjCrpgsbd8tB32A

Obviously you've paid all there is to pay, so there's nothing to be lost in taking this all the way to the tribunal.

I will also get hold of the suspension logs.
Title: Waltham Forest, suspended parking bay, PCN/towing
Post by: towedaway26 on April 01, 2024, 09:06:09 pm
Someone kindly recommended I cross-post this from PePiPoo, so apologies if it's a duplication for anyone - the thread there is http://forums.pepipoo.com/index.php?showtopic=153769

We visited family in Walthamstow last weekend (22nd-24th March) and, arriving in the dark late on Friday night, completely missed the sign about parking being suspended in a few bays on the street to allow access for a removal van the following day. When we went out the next morning our car was gone, and two others parked in the same row had PCNs and tow warning signs on them - I assume it was our bad luck that they took our car first and then came back for the others, or we might have got there in time to just have the PCN. I completely accept that I was parked in a suspended bay, but I feel the signage alerting to the suspension was inadequate given that it was a massive change from the norm for that street. Do I have grounds to contest the PCN/towing based on that? It came to a total of £265 (£65 for the PCN, £200 for the tow), so not small change!

GSV link to the spot in question:
https://maps.app.goo.gl/4w5NJBa3TNTz2pfp7

I was parked pretty much where the black car in this link is, there was another car behind me (to the right of the picture, where the white car is on street view) that was still within the bay. The suspension sign was attached to the lamppost that's behind the white car, so outside numbers 18/20.  Walking up and down the street in daylight I didn't see any other notices about the parking suspension, though I have no photographic evidence of this. 

Here are (hopefully!) photos of the sign, and the paperwork from Waltham council.

(https://imagizer.imageshack.com/img922/142/PTAn2w.jpg)
(https://imagizer.imageshack.com/img924/4729/B2hzSg.jpg)
(https://imagizer.imageshack.com/img923/664/oTT7KS.jpg)
(https://imagizer.imageshack.com/img922/1968/37mPzK.jpg)
(https://imagizer.imageshack.com/img922/4033/0uQhd6.jpg)
(https://imagizer.imageshack.com/img924/6378/sa79Kv.jpg)
(https://imagizer.imageshack.com/img922/7423/9xXDY7.jpg)
(https://imagizer.imageshack.com/img922/5831/Wngcny.jpg)

Thanks for reading, and for any advice!