Author Topic: Ilford lane redbridge Yellow box junction PCN  (Read 3012 times)

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Re: Ilford lane redbridge Yellow box junction PCN
« Reply #30 on: »
As we know we have appealed and waiting for tribunal date this month. I have received the pack today with all these documents. Can someone have a look and advise what it means. Please find the links below for documents received today from Redbridge council.
@MrChips
@Stamfordman
@cp8759
@Hippocrates
Thanks in Advance.
https://ibb.co/mF3j1Y1
https://ibb.co/v3nkfPw
https://ibb.co/hKSjBj8
https://ibb.co/61vjwJz
https://ibb.co/7Jy0VhZ
https://ibb.co/VqLcqzK
https://ibb.co/XJf38Fm
https://ibb.co/LJpHnN7
https://ibb.co/MPR45VR
https://ibb.co/CzpMryK
https://ibb.co/NNhs1Mv
https://ibb.co/RSdGKgP
https://ibb.co/ZJxBZr1
https://ibb.co/cYBtWJZ
« Last Edit: October 17, 2024, 09:55:36 pm by Sam6688 »

Re: Ilford lane redbridge Yellow box junction PCN
« Reply #31 on: »
No one is going to click on all those links as they have no legend.

Post the council's summary - you can select BBcode links to display the pages here.

Re: Ilford lane redbridge Yellow box junction PCN
« Reply #32 on: »
No one is going to click on all those links as they have no legend.

Post the council's summary - you can select BBcode links to display the pages here.

Hi Sorry hope you can see it now 2 pages of council summary
Thanks
@Stamfordman


https://ibb.co/rvjMcgh
https://ibb.co/61vjwJz
« Last Edit: October 18, 2024, 12:54:49 am by Sam6688 »

Re: Ilford lane redbridge Yellow box junction PCN
« Reply #33 on: »
For convenience:




Re: Ilford lane redbridge Yellow box junction PCN
« Reply #34 on: »
This is awful for Redbridge - they seem to have someone who doesn't understand the law and thinks you can pick the stopping part in isolation from the owing to stationary vehicles part.

Re: Ilford lane redbridge Yellow box junction PCN
« Reply #35 on: »
Just working on this. Also, a serious failure to consider the locus issue, save for their comments in their summary.

Dear Sirs

I make these further submissions in support of having M**** case allowed.

1. The appellant has made sensible and coherent submissions; but, the council has failed in  its NOR to consider some of them, even though they have mentioned these in its case summary. Clearly, the initial failure influenced the appellant's decision to file his appeal.

2. The NOR fails to include the form and manner since it does not mention the power of the adjudicator to extend time in which to appeal.

In light of the above, I ask that the appeal be allowed please.
« Last Edit: October 18, 2024, 12:13:33 pm by Hippocrates »
IF YOU RECEIVE A MOVING TRAFFIC PCN PLEASE READ THIS BEFORE MAKING A REPRESENTATION:

https://www.ftla.uk/the-flame-pit/moving-traffic-pcns-missing-mandatory-information-the-london-local-authorities-a/msg102639/#msg102639


How do we get more people to fight their PCNs?

https://www.ftla.uk/the-flame-pit/how-do-we-get-more-people-to-fight-their-pcns/msg41917/#msg41917

If you do not even make a challenge, you will surely join "The Mugged Club".

I am not omniscient. cp8759 and mrmustard are true geniuses. I know my place in the hierarchy of The Three Musketeers. 😊 "The Clinician", "The Gentleman" and "The Showman"

My e mail address for councils:

J.BOND007@H.M.S.S.c/oVAUXHALLBRIDGE/LICENSEDTOEXPOSE.SCAMS.CO.UK

Last mission accomplished:

https://www.ftla.uk/the-flame-pit/southwark-to-r

Re: Ilford lane redbridge Yellow box junction PCN
« Reply #36 on: »
Where is a copy of the OP's reps in the council's evidence?

All I can see is a summary of those reps.

Re: Ilford lane redbridge Yellow box junction PCN
« Reply #37 on: »
Where is a copy of the OP's reps in the council's evidence?

All I can see is a summary of those reps.

Hi @Hippocrates is representing me at tribunal against Redbridge he is in process of that.
Thanks @John U.K.
For uploading pictures.
@stamfordman fingers crossed as we have date in tribunal in 10 days so hopefully will get it cancelled and Adjudicator allow the appeal.

Re: Ilford lane redbridge Yellow box junction PCN
« Reply #38 on: »
This is awful for Redbridge - they seem to have someone who doesn't understand the law and thinks you can pick the stopping part in isolation from the owing to stationary vehicles part.

@stamfordman
@MrChips

Good Afternoon everyone just seeking advice as Hippocrates asked me to attend through the phone as he said I just need to tell the court what happened on the day.
Just getting curious as I don't want to say anything which can go against my case.
Any suggestion what shall I say on the day like why I stopped at yellow box junction.
Good afternoon guys hope everyone is doing good.
I was only 7 or 8 seconds in junction as soon as I notice there are cars i moved out.
Any suggesstion or help will be much appreciated.
Any advice will be appreciated thanks.

Re: Ilford lane redbridge Yellow box junction PCN
« Reply #39 on: »
Hi OP.

So, I've only ever been to the tribunal once (but it was for a box junction and I won although the adjudicator was in my opinion unnecessarily brusque and confrontational - hopefully you will get a less agitated one!) so others are perhaps better qualified to answer this.

For me, and bearing in mind we think you are starting from a winning position, the key things are not to:

- say anything which undermines your credibility, so don't exaggerate, try to mislead, or say anything which is clearly contradicted by the video footage
- say anything that inadvertently suggests you are admitting the offence which (to remind you) is to enter the box such that you have to stop within the box due to stationary vehicles.

Re the latter, the key points are:
- it is not (necessarily) an offence to stop in the box (whatever Redbridge may think)
- if you stop for any reason other than because stationary vehicles force you to then that's not punishable
- consequently, because there is a vehicle sized gap in front of you when you enter the box and also when you stop, you shouldn't be penalised.

You shouldn't focus on (or really bring up) the fact you stopped for 'only' 7 seconds as this isn't relevant (any stop even for less than a second is an offence the way the law is written) so this could distract the adjudicator into thinking that your argument is that you should be let off for only committing an offence for a short time, when your argument is that you didn't commit a contravention in the first place.

You may be asked why you entered the box junction in the first place and then stopped in it, so be prepared for that.  If there is a reason, then that might help (e.g. because you saw traffic ahead coming to a standstill so wanted to let in the vehicle approaching from the left but then realised you were blocking the exit for the car wanting to turn in from the right) but better just to say you can't remember than to make something up which could lead the adjudicator to think you are being economical with the truth.  Ultimately it doesn't really matter why you did if you didn't commit an offence in doing so.

Finally, if you think the adjudicator isn't being sympathetic to this line of defence, don't forget the other item you included in your original challenge around the location being far too vague.  This is especially true given you live so far away and so wouldn't be familiar with the locality from the video or photos.

Ultimately, Hippocrates is very experienced so you are in very good hands :)

Re: Ilford lane redbridge Yellow box junction PCN
« Reply #40 on: »
As per Mr Chips.

I don't think you need to say why - just say you're not sure and can't recall but stress that the contravention did not occur as exit was not prevented by stationary vehicles.

I would also draw attention to what Redbridge say - that you must use the space to exit. This isn't what the law says. The stationary vehicle part must be part of the contravention and it wasn't. They are trying to say a box is a no stopping zone without qualification. 

There's a funny case where I think someone's daughter stopped in a box to change her music cassette but there was no contravention and the appeal was rightly allowed. I'll see if I can find it.
« Last Edit: October 25, 2024, 01:56:28 pm by stamfordman »

Re: Ilford lane redbridge Yellow box junction PCN
« Reply #41 on: »
https://www.londontribunals.gov.uk/sites/default/files/keycases/SKMBT_C454e14031218240.pdf

This is a key case on the tribunal's own website concerning box junctions.  It includes the following extract which supports your case:

"In my view a Council has to prove:-
1) that the driver caused the vehicle to enter (i.e. that it was not pushed by another vehicle)
2) that it then stopped within the junction
3) that the reason it stopped was the presence of vehicles, and that those vehicles were stationary vehicles
If the vehicle continues to move, or it stops due to the presence of moving vehicles, or it stops for some other reason, such as, to allow the driver to make a phone call or admire the view, no contravention occurs."

Re: Ilford lane redbridge Yellow box junction PCN
« Reply #42 on: »
Plus the limitation to one ground as per heir website.
IF YOU RECEIVE A MOVING TRAFFIC PCN PLEASE READ THIS BEFORE MAKING A REPRESENTATION:

https://www.ftla.uk/the-flame-pit/moving-traffic-pcns-missing-mandatory-information-the-london-local-authorities-a/msg102639/#msg102639


How do we get more people to fight their PCNs?

https://www.ftla.uk/the-flame-pit/how-do-we-get-more-people-to-fight-their-pcns/msg41917/#msg41917

If you do not even make a challenge, you will surely join "The Mugged Club".

I am not omniscient. cp8759 and mrmustard are true geniuses. I know my place in the hierarchy of The Three Musketeers. 😊 "The Clinician", "The Gentleman" and "The Showman"

My e mail address for councils:

J.BOND007@H.M.S.S.c/oVAUXHALLBRIDGE/LICENSEDTOEXPOSE.SCAMS.CO.UK

Last mission accomplished:

https://www.ftla.uk/the-flame-pit/southwark-to-r

Re: Ilford lane redbridge Yellow box junction PCN
« Reply #43 on: »
This is the case I was thinking of.

----------

2160252038

The appellant brought with him a freehand sketch in plan to explain and support his argument that the driver could have cleared the box without stopping for the 12 or so seconds recorded. I have retained this and accepted the measurements as shown.

The appellant's daughter Rebecca is shown driving on the clip. I understood she had passed her test two years ago. I have accepted that she could have cleared the box without stopping within it. In the event the rear wheels straddled the far perimeter.

She may through inexperience have misjudged the length of her father's car but I do not incline to allow an appeal of this type on that account. An obvious feature of the evidence was that when she stopped, that she did so for the purpose of adjusting controls on her music. I was inclined to be very critical of her taking her eyes off the road as she did and when she chose to do that. I did however conclude there was insufficient evidence to support this particular penalty charge as I could not attribute the reason for stopping as being essentially the presence of stationary vehicles, as opposed to preoccupation with what was playing music. I have recorded the appeal as allowed.

Re: Ilford lane redbridge Yellow box junction PCN
« Reply #44 on: »
@stamfordman
@MrChips

Thank you all for your advise and suggestions.
I think I would stick to the point that I don't recall or exactly remember why I stopped but will say that by watching video  it clearly shows that my exit was not blocked by stationary vehicle and traffic was moving so stopping at yellow box junction was not an offence. So I would kindly request to allow my appeal and cancel the pcn. I am sure that mr
@Hippocrates will give a strong argument regarding council failure and mistakes in pcn and notice of rejection letter.
I'm bit nervous lol so not sure how it will go but again need to give all the way to win. Thanks again all