Author Topic: Ilford lane redbridge Yellow box junction PCN  (Read 122 times)

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Sam6688

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Ilford lane redbridge Yellow box junction PCN
« on: September 04, 2024, 10:07:54 pm »
Good evening guys hope everyone is doing good.
I know it's my fault staying in yellow box but any possibility I can contest or make representation as I was only 7 or 8 seconds in junction as soon as I notice there are cars i moved out.
Also traffic was moving so I moved forward, stopped for around 8 seconds to see if I have a space in front when I realised it is space and other cars approaching to turn right through yellow box I moved forward.
Please find the link at the end of this post.
Do I stand any chance in appeal.
If yes then what it will be please.
Any suggesstion or help will be much appreciated.

https://1drv.ms/v/c/4fdadd7ae67b3626/ERPS0ivYXQ9Fn2CE-DCQai4BZ61hUrgSr-FuD0-5Rd4Z9Q

https://1drv.ms/i/c/4fdadd7ae67b3626/Ecxe36GPxVxAme_hSnApZu0B4-IwMlnwbQYJ0pCtbpy7Zw

https://1drv.ms/i/c/4fdadd7ae67b3626/EZUxvzbMrUdLi2B85oPwdgwBFYLeeJjPMEXF-jpcDuNtpg
« Last Edit: September 05, 2024, 02:35:28 am by Sam6688 »

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stamfordman

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Re: Yellow box junction PCN
« Reply #1 on: September 04, 2024, 10:40:26 pm »
Add Ilford Lane Redbridge to the title of your thread.

This isn't a contravention because your exit was not blocked by a stationary vehicle.




MrChips

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Re: Yellow box junction PCN
« Reply #2 on: September 04, 2024, 10:50:20 pm »
+1

First step will be to submit representations to the council based on that point (and any other defence we can come up with).

99% probability Redbridge will reject these and you will then need to go to the final stage of appealing to tribunal where you would get an unbiased judgement where I think you would win.

Incandescent

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Re: Yellow box junction PCN
« Reply #3 on: September 04, 2024, 11:40:16 pm »
Just wondering if, when the OP drove on across the YBJ, he cleared the box, because the video stops before the box is cleared.
If the box was cleared after moving forward, there is obviously no contravention as the law is that the vehicle has to stop in the box due to the presence of stationary vehicles.

Sam6688

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Re: Ilford lane redbridge Yellow box junction PCN
« Reply #4 on: September 05, 2024, 02:43:03 am »
+1
Thanks for your replay Mr stamfordman.
So If I'm not wrong and if I guessed it right that you are saying this is not a contravention. So I have c good chance to appeal and get it cancelled. Please guide me through if possible. Thank you.

Sam6688

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Re: Yellow box junction PCN
« Reply #5 on: September 05, 2024, 02:51:23 am »
+1

First step will be to submit representations to the council based on that point (and any other defence we can come up with).

99% probability Redbridge will reject these and you will then need to go to the final stage of appealing to tribunal where you would get an unbiased judgement where I think you would win.

Thanks MrChips so I need to select option at the back of pcn that there was no contravention. And in details I need to put reason for it that there was no stationary vehicle infront if me and traffic was moving so I stopped to see the space and when the vehicle infornt of me moved I moved forward. If you can guide me to add anything to the details that will be much appreciated. I'm quite nervous lol but any suggesstion how its done or to use correct wording will be much appreciated.
Lastly if we made representation/appeal to council and if they reject it then it will go to tribunal and if tribunal reject what happens will I be liable for any fees or will I loose the 14 days 50% discount period?

Sam6688

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Re: Ilford lane redbridge Yellow box junction PCN
« Reply #6 on: September 05, 2024, 03:06:33 am »
I found this on tfl site

https://1drv.ms/i/c/4fdadd7ae67b3626/ET2ITJc2xHdOiShnmgGWpCUBBlYK813lrTYL93TcFQPOWg

which states we can enter to yellow box junction if exit is clear which I have done but I noticed suddenly the car approaching and signals to turn right the i stopped to give the way but then I moved forward to stop causing traffic. Looks like I have chance to appeal with the help of experts and get it cancelled.
Thanks in advance

stamfordman

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Re: Ilford lane redbridge Yellow box junction PCN
« Reply #7 on: September 05, 2024, 12:32:07 pm »
For completeness - does the video end where your recorder does. You haven't posted all the front of the PCN - you only need to obscure your name and address.

Sam6688

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Re: Ilford lane redbridge Yellow box junction PCN
« Reply #8 on: September 05, 2024, 02:56:28 pm »

Hi yes the video does complete on council site same time as my recorder.
Apologise for not uploading full pic.
Here is the link now
https://linksharing.samsungcloud.com/t7we73S8We7z



MrChips

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Re: Ilford lane redbridge Yellow box junction PCN
« Reply #9 on: September 07, 2024, 11:59:35 pm »
Hi - sorry for delay in responding.

I'm happy to help draft representations for you to send - could you post a copy of your PCN in full (just redact your name and address).  In particular, what is the date of the PCN?  That will inform the deadlines we are working to.

Plan to include:
- room to exit the box
- vague location

Due to the vague location I'm not 100% sure which junction on Ilford Lane is involved but seems to be the one with Bedford Road (as I think I can see K1 Tyres in the background - but the box markings must be new as they don't feature in googlemaps yet).  Based on measuring approx distance using road markings you had about 5 metres of clearance to the car in front.  That's enough to accommodate most cars.  What is your make/model and do you know it's official length?

MrChips

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Re: Ilford lane redbridge Yellow box junction PCN
« Reply #10 on: Yesterday at 11:33:42 am »
Proposed draft representations for Redbridge.  You've still got another week before the discount expires so no need to rush.  Give others a chance to chip in.  Credit to cp8759 for the wording on vague location, nicked from another Ilford Lane case.

Dear London Borough of Redbridge,

I challenge liability on the ground that the penalty charge notice ('PCN') does not adequately particularise the alleged wrongdoing. The location of the alleged contravention is given as "Ilford Lane", the name of the road junction is not given. I have looked online and I can see that Ilford Lane is over a mile long and has some 35 junctions, but I cannot find any box junction markings so it seems the box markings have been painted since the Google Street View car last drove down this road.

As the notice does not allow me to understand where it is that the contravention is alleged to have taken place, the notice does not adequately specify the grounds on which you believe the penalty is payable, I refer you to the decision of adjudicator Carl Teper in Saijal Patel v London Borough of Brent (2160240742, 8 August 2016) and adjudicator Andrew Harman in Sandra Grauzyte v London Borough of Redbridge (2230201115, 31 May 2023).

Notwithstanding the issue with the vagueness of the location in the PCN, the video footage shows that no contravention has taken place in any case. Under the relevant regulations a contravention only takes place if a person causes a vehicle to enter the box junction so that the vehicle has to stop within the box junction due to the presence of stationary vehicles. The footage shows a large space beyond the box junction which would be sufficient to accommodate my vehicle. As such my vehicle was not forced to stop where it did by stationary vehicles and it follows that no contravention took place.

It follows that the notice must be cancelled.

I'd further point out that if the PCN did include sufficient information to identify the actual junction involved I would be able to undertake a precise distance analysis of the space involved as compared with the length of my car to further back up the fact no contravention took place.  Alas this is not feasible given the dozens of potential junctions in scope along Ilford Lane.
« Last Edit: Yesterday at 11:39:29 am by MrChips »
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stamfordman

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Re: Ilford lane redbridge Yellow box junction PCN
« Reply #11 on: Yesterday at 01:08:04 pm »
Well I'd start with a simple challenge that the contravention didn't occur. Surely that's best.

Secondary would be vague location.

I wouldn't get into measuring cars - it's obvious that the driver stopped when the exit was way clear.
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