Author Topic: Whipps Cross Road Bus Lane Fine  (Read 2587 times)

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Re: Whipps Cross Road Bus Lane Fine
« Reply #15 on: »
Hi Hippocrates

thanks for this i'll taker a read of this!
Crazy day with a new born finally some time to read through this! :-)

thanks again

Re: Whipps Cross Road Bus Lane Fine
« Reply #16 on: »
Looks absolutely great!!!!!!! wow!

For point 5 shall i keep it short and sweet as you have minus the etc etc or elaborate more?

thanks

Re: Whipps Cross Road Bus Lane Fine
« Reply #17 on: »
Looks absolutely great!!!!!!! wow!

For point 5 shall i keep it short and sweet as you have minus the etc etc or elaborate more?

thanks

Post it up here first pl.
IF YOU RECEIVE A MOVING TRAFFIC PCN PLEASE READ THIS BEFORE MAKING A REPRESENTATION:

https://www.ftla.uk/the-flame-pit/moving-traffic-pcns-missing-mandatory-information-the-london-local-authorities-a/msg102639/#msg102639


How do we get more people to fight their PCNs?

https://www.ftla.uk/the-flame-pit/how-do-we-get-more-people-to-fight-their-pcns/msg41917/#msg41917

If you do not even make a challenge, you will surely join "The Mugged Club".

I am not omniscient. cp8759 and mrmustard are true geniuses. I know my place in the hierarchy of The Three Musketeers. 😊 "The Clinician", "The Gentleman" and "The Showman"

My e mail address for councils:

J.BOND007@H.M.S.S.c/oVAUXHALLBRIDGE/LICENSEDTOEXPOSE.SCAMS.CO.UK

Last mission accomplished:

https://www.ftla.uk/the-flame-pit/southwark-to-r

Re: Whipps Cross Road Bus Lane Fine
« Reply #18 on: »
Hi Hippocrates

thanks for this i'll taker a read of this!
Crazy day with a new born finally some time to read through this! :-)

thanks again

Congratulations! ;)
IF YOU RECEIVE A MOVING TRAFFIC PCN PLEASE READ THIS BEFORE MAKING A REPRESENTATION:

https://www.ftla.uk/the-flame-pit/moving-traffic-pcns-missing-mandatory-information-the-london-local-authorities-a/msg102639/#msg102639


How do we get more people to fight their PCNs?

https://www.ftla.uk/the-flame-pit/how-do-we-get-more-people-to-fight-their-pcns/msg41917/#msg41917

If you do not even make a challenge, you will surely join "The Mugged Club".

I am not omniscient. cp8759 and mrmustard are true geniuses. I know my place in the hierarchy of The Three Musketeers. 😊 "The Clinician", "The Gentleman" and "The Showman"

My e mail address for councils:

J.BOND007@H.M.S.S.c/oVAUXHALLBRIDGE/LICENSEDTOEXPOSE.SCAMS.CO.UK

Last mission accomplished:

https://www.ftla.uk/the-flame-pit/southwark-to-r

Re: Whipps Cross Road Bus Lane Fine
« Reply #19 on: »
Many thanks! a lot of sleepless nights for a while!

here is the updated point 5:

Dear Waltham Forest

Ref: PCN: FR63196811  VRM:  WF68WJV

I make this initial challenge as follows:

1. The video evidence provided does not clearly show any signs allegedly passed or violated. Therefore, it follows that the alleged contravention is not proved.

2. The presence of a break in the solid white line within the road markings is confusing and misleading to motorists. This can contribute to unintentional lane changes.

https://i.ibb.co/G52vZs1/IMG-9998.jpg

3. Notably, there is no clear end of bus lane sign visible. I refer to the Traffic Signs Manual Chapter Three@9.3.9.  The end of a with flow bus lane will usually be obvious through the termination of the diagram 1049A marking. If considered necessary due to observed driver behaviour, an upright sign to diagram 964 (S9 4 11, see Figure 9-5) may be sited as shown in Figure 9-1. The lane should normally be stopped short of the Stop line at traffic signal controlled junctions.  I refer to para. 9.3.13.  Where a nearside bus lane passes a junction with a major left turning flow into the side road, the line to diagram 1049A should be replaced with a broken line to diagram 1010 (see Figure 9-1). The broken line should commence 30 m in advance of the junction, and have the same width as the line to diagram 1049A. It should be accompanied by the arrow to diagram 1050 indicating a left turn (see Figure 9-6). At other junctions, the diagram 1049A marking should be terminated approximately 10 m before the junction (or at the junction if the minor road is one way towards the major road). In each case the bus lane recommences beyond the junction in combination with a marking to diagram 1010 (see Figure 9-1). It is important to ensure that the marking to diagram 1049A is terminated correctly, so that drivers turning left can move across to do so safely without needing to cross the continuous line.  Given the camera only focusses on the final 33 metres, it is arguable that  the observed behaviour will constitute  a large majority of motorists clipping the end.

Clearly, there used to be an End of Bus Lane sign. I also rely upon this High Court ruling:

R(Oxfordshire County Council) v The Bus Lane Adjudicator [2010]EWHC 894 (Admin) Mr Justice Beatson confirmed that, Para 65. The Defendant's submission that the fact that signs are prescribed or authorised does not mean they are sufficient for securing adequate information as to the effect of an order is made available to road users is clearly correct. If the signs do not in fact provide adequate information no offence is committed;


4. I put you to  strict proof that the camera used for monitoring and enforcement satisfies the criterion of admissibility of evidence at the Tribunal, as outlined in Para 7(2) of Schedule 1 of The London Local Authorities Act 1996 (as amended) and Part II.

5. Mitigating circumstances:  I was returning home quickly whilst my wife was in labour at the nearby Whipps Cross Hospital where I have resided between 07/08/2024 to 11/08/2024 whilst my wife and baby were under serious care by the maternity doctors at the hospital.


In light of the above, please cancel the said PCN.

Yours faithfully

Reg. keeper
Address

I will look to send this off at the end of the week whilst I wait for any other PCN letter to appear in the post. If any more appear then as you said earlier this would be updated.

Many thanks
JRC

Re: Whipps Cross Road Bus Lane Fine
« Reply #20 on: »
Good to go IMO.
IF YOU RECEIVE A MOVING TRAFFIC PCN PLEASE READ THIS BEFORE MAKING A REPRESENTATION:

https://www.ftla.uk/the-flame-pit/moving-traffic-pcns-missing-mandatory-information-the-london-local-authorities-a/msg102639/#msg102639


How do we get more people to fight their PCNs?

https://www.ftla.uk/the-flame-pit/how-do-we-get-more-people-to-fight-their-pcns/msg41917/#msg41917

If you do not even make a challenge, you will surely join "The Mugged Club".

I am not omniscient. cp8759 and mrmustard are true geniuses. I know my place in the hierarchy of The Three Musketeers. 😊 "The Clinician", "The Gentleman" and "The Showman"

My e mail address for councils:

J.BOND007@H.M.S.S.c/oVAUXHALLBRIDGE/LICENSEDTOEXPOSE.SCAMS.CO.UK

Last mission accomplished:

https://www.ftla.uk/the-flame-pit/southwark-to-r

Re: Whipps Cross Road Bus Lane Fine
« Reply #21 on: »
Want me to wait for further PCNs or get this sent off?

thanks

Re: Whipps Cross Road Bus Lane Fine
« Reply #22 on: »
Send it off now please. We will deal with each one separately.
IF YOU RECEIVE A MOVING TRAFFIC PCN PLEASE READ THIS BEFORE MAKING A REPRESENTATION:

https://www.ftla.uk/the-flame-pit/moving-traffic-pcns-missing-mandatory-information-the-london-local-authorities-a/msg102639/#msg102639


How do we get more people to fight their PCNs?

https://www.ftla.uk/the-flame-pit/how-do-we-get-more-people-to-fight-their-pcns/msg41917/#msg41917

If you do not even make a challenge, you will surely join "The Mugged Club".

I am not omniscient. cp8759 and mrmustard are true geniuses. I know my place in the hierarchy of The Three Musketeers. 😊 "The Clinician", "The Gentleman" and "The Showman"

My e mail address for councils:

J.BOND007@H.M.S.S.c/oVAUXHALLBRIDGE/LICENSEDTOEXPOSE.SCAMS.CO.UK

Last mission accomplished:

https://www.ftla.uk/the-flame-pit/southwark-to-r

Re: Whipps Cross Road Bus Lane Fine
« Reply #23 on: »
Evening H!
To confirm this appeal has now been sent off to the council!

hope you have had a good day and will touch base on the forum when i get a reply!

Best
JRC

Re: Whipps Cross Road Bus Lane Fine
« Reply #24 on: »
Hi there,

Brand new to this forum so apologies if I'm not doing things right, and sorry to piggyback off this thread, but I am dealing with a PCN for the exact same circumstances as OP here (pulled into the 'bus lane' after the bus stop marked, intending to get in lane for the imminent roundabout, blissfully unaware the bus lane even went that far).

Can anyone advise whether I should use the same formatting for the appeal letter as above?

My mitigating circumstances are not quite as severe, though I was returning to work after receiving treatment for a cat bite on my foot at Whipps Cross A&E, so this was a fun little cherry on top of that particular day. /s

Many thanks,
LCS1919

Re: Whipps Cross Road Bus Lane Fine
« Reply #25 on: »
Hi there,

Brand new to this forum so apologies if I'm not doing things right, and sorry to piggyback off this thread,
 . . .

Many thanks,
LCS1919



Please to have a read of this
https://www.ftla.uk/civil-penalty-charge-notices-(councils-tfl-and-so-on)/read-this-first-before-posting-your-case!-this-section-is-for-council-tfl-dartme/

And start your own thread with all sides of your PCN (redacting only yr name & address),
the video,
a GSV link to the location
and a brief account of the circumstances. By all means include a link to this thread in your own post, but basic forum rule is one cae per thread.

Like Like x 1 View List

Re: Whipps Cross Road Bus Lane Fine
« Reply #26 on: »
Quote
3. Notably, there is no clear end of bus lane sign visible. I refer to the Traffic Signs Manual Chapter Three@9.3.9.  The end of a with flow bus lane will usually be obvious through the termination of the diagram 1049A marking. If considered necessary due to observed driver behaviour, an upright sign to diagram 964 (S9 4 11, see Figure 9-5) may be sited as shown in Figure 9-1.

The lane should normally be stopped short of the Stop line at traffic signal controlled junctions.  I refer to para. 9.3.13.  Where a nearside bus lane passes a junction with a major left turning flow into the side road, the line to diagram 1049A should be replaced with a broken line to diagram 1010 (see Figure 9-1). The broken line should commence 30 m in advance of the junction, and have the same width as the line to diagram 1049A. It should be accompanied by the arrow to diagram 1050 indicating a left turn (see Figure 9-6). At other junctions, the diagram 1049A marking should be terminated approximately 10 m before the junction (or at the junction if the minor road is one way towards the major road). In each case the bus lane recommences beyond the junction in combination with a marking to diagram 1010 (see Figure 9-1). It is important to ensure that the marking to diagram 1049A is terminated correctly, so that drivers turning left can move across to do so safely without needing to cross the continuous line.

Given the camera only focusses on the final 33 metres, it is arguable that  the observed behaviour will constitute  a large majority of motorists clipping the end.

I'm not getting the relevance of the bit in blue, unless there is something subtle I've missed. This only applies to the markings where there is a side road. There are no turnings before the traffic lights on this bus lane. The lane stops before the traffic lights.

Because they only focus on the final 33m of the 186m bus lane, the observed behaviour is almost always clipping the last 10 metres or so.

re: 2. I did measure the gap which is approximately 2 metres.
« Last Edit: August 20, 2024, 11:09:09 pm by Glitch »

Re: Whipps Cross Road Bus Lane Fine
« Reply #27 on: »
@Glitch: I cited you from another thread.  ;)
IF YOU RECEIVE A MOVING TRAFFIC PCN PLEASE READ THIS BEFORE MAKING A REPRESENTATION:

https://www.ftla.uk/the-flame-pit/moving-traffic-pcns-missing-mandatory-information-the-london-local-authorities-a/msg102639/#msg102639


How do we get more people to fight their PCNs?

https://www.ftla.uk/the-flame-pit/how-do-we-get-more-people-to-fight-their-pcns/msg41917/#msg41917

If you do not even make a challenge, you will surely join "The Mugged Club".

I am not omniscient. cp8759 and mrmustard are true geniuses. I know my place in the hierarchy of The Three Musketeers. 😊 "The Clinician", "The Gentleman" and "The Showman"

My e mail address for councils:

J.BOND007@H.M.S.S.c/oVAUXHALLBRIDGE/LICENSEDTOEXPOSE.SCAMS.CO.UK

Last mission accomplished:

https://www.ftla.uk/the-flame-pit/southwark-to-r

Re: Whipps Cross Road Bus Lane Fine
« Reply #28 on: »
@Glitch: I cited you from another thread.  ;)

:-[

Don't know where the bit in blue above came from. It doesn't apply to this bus lane.

I put a fair amount into this one Whipps Cross Bus Lane. Nothing about left turn markings though.

Doesn't matter for Council but it will for Tribunal. I'll keep searching to see if I've messed up in another thread.

I think the key points are that they only monitor the final 33m or so of the 186m bus lane (google map measurements)

Observed behaviour warrants an end of bus lane sign (but they cant seem to put on on the bridge). Adjudicators might not see a trend but we certainly have seen nearly everyone clipping the end.

When is a continuous solid line no longer continuous? I'd say 2m is more than enough. Lack of maintenance of road markings. Not repainted for many years - gap is growing as seen on GSV. 

Camera angle does not provide context. No signs visible. Are they deliberately trying to imply the bus lane continues down the road when it is right on the end?
« Last Edit: August 21, 2024, 10:53:45 am by Glitch »

Re: Whipps Cross Road Bus Lane Fine
« Reply #29 on: »
Post #16 in the thread I quoted above makes reference to Chapter 5 Road markings diagram 1010. 1m gap between dashes.

This is just making the point that a dashed line has 1m gaps and the gap in the bus lane marking is 2m long.
It surely cannot be deemed 'substantially compliant' if it is a greater gap than a dashed line.

Hopefully I've wriggled off the hook!