Author Topic: Westminster council.Restricted street.No unloading.No road markings.Wrong postcode??  (Read 631 times)

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Hi,

Received a windscreen ticket on 15/06/2024 around 21:40pm for a CODE 02 - parked or loading/unloading in a restricted street where waiting and loading/unloading restrictions seem to be in force.
1. The online postcode for Clifford st (Westminster) is W1S 2LG.
The street address on the tickets says Clifford st (E1). If this is the case then this ticket is incorrect.
2. Clifford st ( westminster) is a one way street. There are no visible restricted signs for a driver approaching the street at night from one of the side entrances to the one way street.
3.There are no yellow line road markings on this street or nearby UNLOADING or RESTRICTED signs until you exit the vehicle. On foot you will have to be very observant as they are situated at the end of the street and very confusing.
4.The vehicle is parked outside of the timezones of the parking time posts also.
5. This ticket was appealed within the 14 days online and a rejection reply was sent to email. The COUNCIL did not mention or state the postcode error on the issued windscreen ticket.
6. We have just received the rejection letter and 14 days to pay discounted amount.
Is there an admin error here on the ticket, and can this ticket be fought effectively?

7. Pictures and appeal letter + reply are included however due to site error will be posted shortly

Here is the Google location link: https://maps.app.goo.gl/b57CSwaAGdRmnhwv7
« Last Edit: July 03, 2024, 02:14:13 pm by FindThatLegalAngle »

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It’s a restricted zone. E1 is the number of the zone.
Informative Informative x 1 View List

I practice law in the Traffic Penalty Tribunal, London Tribunals, the First-tier tribunal for Scotland, and the Traffic Penalty Tribunal for Northern Ireland, but I am not a solicitor or a barrister. Notwithstanding this, I voluntarily apply the cab rank rule. I am a member of the Society of Professional McKenzie Friends, my membership number is FM193 and I abide by the SPMF service standards.

Quote from: 'Gumph' date='Thu, 19 Jan 2023 - 10:23'
cp8759 is, indeed, a Wizard of the First Order


Hi

Here is the Google location link for Clifford st : https://maps.app.goo.gl/b57CSwaAGdRmnhwv7

Here is the windscreen ticket - front :  https://icedrive.net/s/55vvTBG949kuWYWNhZBQYZ826jvG

Here is the windscreen ticket - back : https://icedrive.net/s/9T8gAihBkXikV4VuD9X2hGTBVPiD

Here is the ONLINE appeal to the council : https://icedrive.net/s/NzgBTQB3iQR14TxWDy61YbAuwFXu

Here is the Westminster council reply : https://icedrive.net/s/wuh5BXGxFPfRTS35Bh4v2YBB3zkG

Thank you.



Where's the RPZ entrance which you used, we need to see this.

Their response is typical nonsense in part e.g. there MAY NOT be any variance of the waiting restrictions within a RPZ, restrictions must be uniform throughout, the council does not have carte blanche to dispense with repeater signs(it depends on the size of the zone) etc.

If you were within a RPZ - which I think we can take as a working hypothesis- then your only defences at this stage could be:

The zone is too large and complex to justify not placing repeater signs;
The signs were not in situ/obscured or flawed in some other way;

We don't have the traffic order neither is there any apparent procedural impropriety so far(barring the stupid comments referred to above).

Wait for others.
Informative Informative x 1 View List

HI


The ENTRANCE to the one way is via CORK ST- W1 with a RIGHT turn into CLIFFORD ST W1.
Shown here : https://maps.app.goo.gl/ofW3nLRSMYKHb8zv5


There is another ENTRANCE at beginning of the ONE WAY SECTION of CLIFFORD STREET- W1 which starts at BOND ST - W1.

Shown here:  https://maps.app.goo.gl/DcE88KohdoMFFPBJA

CLIFFORD ST is a street in central London, built in the early 18th century, on land that once formed part of the Burlington Estate.The street runs east–west from New Bond Street to Savile Row. It is crossed by Old Burlington Street, and Cork Street runs from its south side to Burlington Gardens.

Length of Clifford Street W1

it is a relatively short street, and its length can be estimated based on its location and surrounding streets. Clifford Street is approximately 0.4 miles (0.64 km) long, stretching from New Bond Street to Savile Row.

Hope this helps.


HI


The ENTRANCE to the one way is via CORK ST- W1 with a RIGHT turn into CLIFFORD ST W1.
Shown here : https://maps.app.goo.gl/ofW3nLRSMYKHb8zv5


There is another ENTRANCE at beginning of the ONE WAY SECTION of CLIFFORD STREET- W1 which starts at BOND ST - W1.

Shown here:  https://maps.app.goo.gl/DcE88KohdoMFFPBJA

CLIFFORD ST is a street in central London, built in the early 18th century, on land that once formed part of the Burlington Estate.The street runs east–west from New Bond Street to Savile Row. It is crossed by Old Burlington Street, and Cork Street runs from its south side to Burlington Gardens.

Length of Clifford Street W1

it is a relatively short street, and its length can be estimated based on its location and surrounding streets. Clifford Street is approximately 0.4 miles (0.64 km) long, stretching from New Bond Street to Savile Row.

Hope this helps.

I think you've misunderstood.

You aren't being asked about where you entered Clifford Street.

Clifford Street is in the controlled parking zone designated E1.  (See the map on this page:  https://www.westminster.gov.uk/parking/parking-zones-and-prices )

What you are being asked is precisely where you entered zone E1 and what route you took to get to Clifford street.

This is so the entrance to the zone can be checked to see if it has the required signage.

So where di you enter zone E1 and what route did you take to Clifford Street?


Understood.

The route is via CONDUIT ST to full length of SAVILE ROW, right into BURLINGTON GARDENS ( Not left into VIGO ST), RIGHT into CORK ST, then LEFT into ONE WAY of CLIFFORD ST- W1.

GSV suggests Westminster have a serious problem and one which touches on another current thread and possibly others.

GSV(1 year-old) shows a Controlled Parking Zone sign o/s The Deck, no.19 Savile Row. Prior to this there are yellow lines galore, but beyond there's nothing except some part-time parking places with their own No Waiting signs(black on yellow) but without any yellow lines, therefore making these restrictions unenforceable.

Perhaps the CPZ sign has been replaced now with a RPZ sign, in which case the part-time 'No Waiting' signs cannot be there. But this wouldn't explain why unmarked so-called no waiting restrictions were signed in the first place.

Alternatively, perhaps Westminster don't realise that a RPZ is NOT a CPZ but without yellow lines because within an RPZ waiting restrictions must be uniform.

OP, a little legwork for you pl.

And can we nail the issue of CPZs and RPZs, both of which are defined terms under the TSRGDs. The OP's alleged contravention is predicated on being within a RPZ because there aren't any yellow lines to give effect to any 'no waiting' restriction.

So, are you within a RPZ which is:

Correctly and clearly signed, and
Within which there are no contrary indicators(such as black on yellow traffic signs which purport to give effect to different waiting restrictions)?



OP, a little legwork for you pl.
Maybe it's just me but it's not immediately obvious what you're asking FindThatLegalAngle to actually do.
I practice law in the Traffic Penalty Tribunal, London Tribunals, the First-tier tribunal for Scotland, and the Traffic Penalty Tribunal for Northern Ireland, but I am not a solicitor or a barrister. Notwithstanding this, I voluntarily apply the cab rank rule. I am a member of the Society of Professional McKenzie Friends, my membership number is FM193 and I abide by the SPMF service standards.

Quote from: 'Gumph' date='Thu, 19 Jan 2023 - 10:23'
cp8759 is, indeed, a Wizard of the First Order

OP, a little legwork for you pl.
Maybe it's just me but it's not immediately obvious what you're asking FindThatLegalAngle to actually do.
Check for the presence of RPZ signs, and also their corollary, the signs for "end of zone", I would think.

OP, where and what is the sign in Savile Row? It should be one which says 'RESTRICTED PARKING ZONE'.

Are there any signs like these after the sign and on your route to where you parked, including in your vicinity?

https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/782724/traffic-signs-manual-chapter-03.pdf

RPZ - page 200
No waiting signs - pages 171+

Quote
Alternatively, perhaps Westminster don't realise that a RPZ is NOT a CPZ but without yellow lines because within an RPZ waiting restrictions must be uniform. -- HCA


Westminster, as per their rejection letter:
Here is the Westminster council reply : https://icedrive.net/s/wuh5BXGxFPfRTS35Bh4v2YBB3zkG

seem to believe CPZs and RPZs are identical - see

https://www.westminster.gov.uk/parking/parking-residents/where-you-can-park-resident-permit

and scroll down past the map links (which call their CPZs RPZs1).


..Added note -The route is via CONDUIT ST to full length of SAVILE ROW, right into BURLINGTON GARDENS ( Not left into VIGO ST), RIGHT into CORK ST, then RIGHT into ONE WAY of CLIFFORD ST- W1.
FROM CORK ST, left would be against the ONE WAY system.

When turning RIGHT onto CLIFFORD ST, There are ZERO yellow lines.
There are marked bays with signs for MOTORCYCLES up to a certain time.All on the DRIVERS side AFTER exiting.

Since it is a one way ONLY when exiting can you then view the signs bearing in mind that this is a one way street.

However the No loading/unloading sign is further away from the unmarked space.This can confuse any motorist who has since exited the vehicle or crossed over the street as it is a ONE WAY STREET that has no visible signs BEFORE parking


Here is attachment of the street and vehicle spacing:

https://icedrive.net/s/1QBy13NYhF8GQSvwX3aAawBju18Q

https://icedrive.net/s/8SBjP6BTuXWWtR8GQAu1zCGZFiX5

https://icedrive.net/s/Duvi4hTW266yCD4gS7B1G3gSzuSP

https://icedrive.net/s/1WWRZ42kaVXwgfa5juvQjzWVyuFN

https://icedrive.net/s/BXFAk42v2fTvjV845ZDT8BXuFSNV

https://icedrive.net/s/gGGXzFh568yZP7hj4DbRPXRyyTuS


Signs of the street beyond the car placement are displayed below :

https://icedrive.net/s/jPGB1ijibNtzzzBYFDZkGyXSiN7C

https://icedrive.net/s/TxXxByba5ZtjTVPBv691NThz39Xf

https://icedrive.net/s/yfPBxi7PYAbR9tYBtb9XQZgZ98Px

There is also a No unloading sign near the top of CLIFFORD ST junction near the corner of New burlington and Clifford st.It can be seen ONLY if you walk on the drivers side WHILE EXITING or NOT til you leave and drive from the premise on a ONE WAY street.