Author Topic: Westminster Council, Code 31, yellow box junction, Piccadilly/Half Moon Street.  (Read 879 times)

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Hi all, I've received a PCN for stopping in a box junction, the details are as follows:

PCN Number WE5076062A
Vehicle Reg MR58ORG

I was at a traffic light on Piccadilly waiting to turn Right into Half Moon Street (HMS) there were two vehicles in front of me. When the lights turned green the vehicles in front of me moved off and began to turn into HMS, which was completely clear. The first vehicle turned in without issue, the second vehicle (which I was directly behind) was unable to turn into HMS because some pedestrians crossed the road in front of it and it was forced to stop on the box junction, I was following directly behind and also got stuck on the box junction while the pedestrians crossed.

I would be greatful to receive any help with regards to appealing this PCN.

Apologies, I'm new to the forum and have been unable to register with Imgur, and can't attach the docs.

I have posted on the FTLA Facebook page and the image and video can be seen there.

https://www.facebook.com/share/p/QMZS4hrc4RnRwuiU/

Thanks in advance
« Last Edit: June 09, 2024, 11:17:56 pm by Malteser »

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I wonder if the turning right exemption is applicable here?

"The prohibition [in sub-paragraph (1)] does not, [in respect of a box junction within sub-paragraph (6)(a) of the definition of that expression], apply to a person who—

(a)causes a vehicle to enter the box junction for the purpose of turning right; and
(b)stops the vehicle within the box junction for so long as the vehicle is prevented from completing the right turn by an oncoming vehicle or other vehicle which is stationary whilst waiting to complete a right turn."

Seems clear to me that both limbs of the exemption are fulfilled.  But I know that some adjudicators have decided that certain types of box junctions are outside the scope of this exemption (e.g. at T-junctions).  This isn't a classic box junction situated at a crossroads, and a driver doesn't need to enter the box junction to wait for a gap in oncoming traffic as it is controlled by traffic lights.

Thanks for your reply, how should I proceed? Should I appeal on the basis of the Right turn exemption, or just state the facts?

Sorry, been busy at work. Happy to draft something in next 24 hours.

Thanks, appreciate your help

See 2180035633  edited to only the relevant part

The Authority relies on CCTV footage showing the appellant's vehicle entering the junction in order to turn right. The vehicle has to stop in the junction because of stationary traffic in the lane he wishes to join. The Authority says that stationary traffic in the oncoming lane is not' oncoming traffic' and therefore the Appellant cannot rely on the exception to the prohibition against stopping in a box junction.

I disagree with the Authority. I find that the term oncoming traffic should be construed broadly as this is in line with the purpose of the exception to the prohibition on entering junctions. It is hard to see how there would ever be cars waiting to turn right (as envisaged in the second limb of the exception) if the Authority's interpretation were correct.

In the circumstances I am not satisfied the Authority has shown that a contravention occurred or that it is entitled to enforce the Penalty Charge Notice.

and

2190001784 edited to relevant part

There is no doubt on the evidence that Mr. Mollanaghi’s vehicle entered the box junction and stopped within it due to the presence of stationary vehicles. On the face of it, therefore, the alleged contravention is proved. But that is not the end of the matter.

Mr. Mollanaghi applies on the above sub-paragraph, (3). There does not appear to be a dispute – and I would in any event have decided – that the junction is one to which sub-paragraph 6(a) applies because it is a junction between two or more roads.

What Mr. Mollanaghi was doing at that junction was, self-evidently, turning right, and he entered the box junction for the purpose of doing so. There could not be any dispute about that. Sub-paragraph (3)(a) is therefore satisfied.

The EA asserts that nonetheless the exemption does apply because sub-paragraph 3(b) does not apply. That is because, the EA submits, there were no ‘oncoming’ vehicles. That is indeed correct as a statement of fact. However, as subsection (3)(b) makes clear, the presence of oncoming vehicles or, respectively, of vehicles which are stationary whilst completing right turns, are alternatives. It follows that it is not necessary, for sub-paragraph (3) to apply, for there to be oncoming vehicles.

I turn then to consider whether, on the evidence, sub-paragraph 3(b) applies. I looked carefully at the position of the vehicle ahead of Mr. Mollanaghi’s vehicle vis-à-vis the carriageway at the point the two vehicles were stationary. I find that neither Mr. Mollanaghi’s vehicle nor the car in front of it had completed their respective right turns. The vehicle ahead had not yet fully lined up with the carriageway and was still in the process of turning right when it came to a halt. Mr. Mollanaghi’s vehicle was only stationary behind the vehicle ahead whilst that other vehicle was stationary in the position I have described, waiting to complete its own right turn. Accordingly, I find that sub-paragraph (3)(b) applies with the effect that sub-paragraph (3) as a whole applies and the contravention is not proved.

Rather the contravening vehicle in this case is that vehicle ahead of Mr. Mollanaghi’s vehicle. Whilst that vehicle was turning right at the point it was stationary, the vehicle ahead of it was not and had completed its right turn. Therefore, whilst sub-paragraph 3(b) applies to Mr. Mollanaghi’s vehicle it does not apply to the vehicle in front of his.




OK, here's a suggested draft representation for Westminster.  The quoted cases will be useful for any future tribunal appeal but I don't suggest including them for Westminster as they will just reject anyway so better to keep it simple for now.

I think there is also a tribunal decision that allowed an appeal on the basis the traffic was flowing freely and the traffic stop couldn't have been predicted.  Not sure if anyone can dig it out for later?

Dear City of Westminster

Re PCN XXXXXXXX

I recently received the above PCN in respect of entering and stopping in a box junction. I submit these representations on the grounds that the contravention did not occur.

There is an exemption set out in the relevant legislation which states:

The prohibition...does not [in respect of a box junction situated at a road junction] apply to a person who—

(a)causes a vehicle to enter the box junction for the purpose of turning right; and
(b)stops the vehicle within the box junction for so long as the vehicle is prevented from completing the right turn by an oncoming vehicle or other vehicle which is stationary whilst waiting to complete a right turn.

As can clearly be seen from the video footage supplied, my vehicle entered the box junction for the purpose of turning right into Half Moon Street.  It stopped  within the box junction only for so long as it was prevented from completing the right turn by another vehicle (the vehicle immediately in front) which was stationary whilst waiting to complete a right turn into Half Moon Street (its turn was not completed as it was still half in Piccadilly, and was also not fully aligned with Half Moon Street).  As such, on this basis the exemption applies and the contravention alleged did not occur.

The reason there was any stop at all is because of pedestrians crossing Half Moon Street just out of view of the video camera, rather than because there was any stationary traffic in Half Moon Street.  The situation of the video camera does not show this but I clearly recollect it and it can be inferred from the speed at which the first car exits the box junction, while the second car comes to a halt soon afterwards.

On this basis I look forward to the cancellation of the PCN.

Thanks, I will submit that today and let you know what happens. Thanks again

@Malteser while we wait for a response, please post up the actual PCN, we've seen quite a few Westminster cases in the last few months where there are defects in the wording. Please post up all sides of all pages, redacting your name and address only, see the guidance here on how to post images: https://www.ftla.uk/civil-penalty-charge-notices-(councils-tfl-and-so-on)/read-this-first-before-posting-your-case!-this-section-is-for-council-tfl-dartme/

For those not on facebook, here's the video:

I practice law in the Traffic Penalty Tribunal, London Tribunals, the First-tier tribunal for Scotland, and the Traffic Penalty Tribunal for Northern Ireland, but I am not a solicitor or a barrister. Notwithstanding this, I voluntarily apply the cab rank rule. I am a member of the Society of Professional McKenzie Friends, my membership number is FM193 and I abide by the SPMF service standards.

Quote from: 'Gumph' date='Thu, 19 Jan 2023 - 10:23'
cp8759 is, indeed, a Wizard of the First Order

Here is the original PCN.

Thanks


https://imgur.com/a/6laOEKd
« Last Edit: July 19, 2024, 01:57:29 pm by Malteser »

As per cp8759:  PCN please.
IF YOU RECEIVE A MOVING TRAFFIC PCN PLEASE READ THIS BEFORE MAKING A REPRESENTATION:

https://www.ftla.uk/the-flame-pit/moving-traffic-pcns-missing-mandatory-information-the-london-local-authorities-a/msg102639/#msg102639


How do we get more people to fight their PCNs?

https://www.ftla.uk/the-flame-pit/how-do-we-get-more-people-to-fight-their-pcns/msg41917/#msg41917

If you do not even make a challenge, you will surely join "The Mugged Club".

I am not omniscient. cp8759 and mrmustard are true geniuses. I know my place in the hierarchy of The Three Musketeers. 😊 "The Clinician", "The Gentleman" and "The Showman"

My e mail address for councils:

J.BOND007@H.M.S.S.c/oVAUXHALLBRIDGE/LICENSEDTOEXPOSE.SCAMS.CO.UK

Last mission accomplished:

https://www.ftla.uk/the-flame-pit/southwark-to-r

Hopefully the link to the original PCN works so you can now view that.

Here is the Rejection Notice. Thanks in advance.

https://imgur.com/a/sVGBy0Q

The Notice of Rejection states that your representations were rejected because "the right turn exemption only applies when the exit for the yellow box junction is clear".

While this is the case, the logic is very flawed as the position of the camera does not allow the viewer to see what is happening beyond the exit to the box junction.  Indeed the first car zooms through unimpeded and on balance of probabilities I'd be inclined to believe it's more likely pedestrians than a stationary vehicle which is causing the blockage of the exit.

On the basis that the letter effectively states they've rejected you on the basis of something which the video doesn't show, I'd be inclined to take this to tribunal, but see what others think.

Hopefully the link to the original PCN works so you can now view that.

Here is the Rejection Notice. Thanks in advance.

https://imgur.com/a/sVGBy0Q

The NOR does not mention that the adjudicator can extend time in which to accept a late representation.
IF YOU RECEIVE A MOVING TRAFFIC PCN PLEASE READ THIS BEFORE MAKING A REPRESENTATION:

https://www.ftla.uk/the-flame-pit/moving-traffic-pcns-missing-mandatory-information-the-london-local-authorities-a/msg102639/#msg102639


How do we get more people to fight their PCNs?

https://www.ftla.uk/the-flame-pit/how-do-we-get-more-people-to-fight-their-pcns/msg41917/#msg41917

If you do not even make a challenge, you will surely join "The Mugged Club".

I am not omniscient. cp8759 and mrmustard are true geniuses. I know my place in the hierarchy of The Three Musketeers. 😊 "The Clinician", "The Gentleman" and "The Showman"

My e mail address for councils:

J.BOND007@H.M.S.S.c/oVAUXHALLBRIDGE/LICENSEDTOEXPOSE.SCAMS.CO.UK

Last mission accomplished:

https://www.ftla.uk/the-flame-pit/southwark-to-r

Apologies, this was also with the NOR.

https://imgur.com/a/Gc2HX6V