3. Westminster - 53c - Lower Belgrave Street - Multiple PCNs (5)
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Westminster - 53c - Lower Belgrave Street - Multiple PCNs (5)
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Hi,

I went through a pedestrian and cycle zone (in operation between 8.30 and 9.30am) while ridding my scooter/moped on my way to work.
This was not my usual commute route. My normal route is currently blocked because of road work so I had to find an alternative route.
Unfortunately I repeatedly didn't see the sign.
I basically kept taking that road until I received the first PCN at which point I realized my mistake and I stopped taking that road.
The first contravention was on 1st May and I only received the PCN on 14th May (evening) (notice issued on 13th May).
So I kept using the road between 1st May and 14th May (morning) and have received so far 5 PCNs.

How can I get all but the first PCN cancelled?

PCN details:

PCN Number   Contravention   Time      Notice Date   Receipt Date   Number of days between contravention and receipt of PCN
WE5072962A   01/05/24   09:20 AM   13/05/24   14/05/24   13
WE50729798   02/05/24   09:26 AM   13/05/24   14/05/24   12
WE5073055A   08/05/24   08:49 AM   14/05/24   16/05/24   8
WE5074094A   13/05/24   09:16 AM   17/05/24   21/05/24   8
WE50741137   14/05/24   09:17 AM   17/05/24   21/05/24   7


You can see the first PCN (front and back) here (the other ones are the same):
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1XVI_RoLiL2LC_IjnWbqyKCRsuVjk3645/view?usp=drive_link
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1XWvgUAi6UiaSnjADx-UJXuaohl1qmbm1/view?usp=drive_link


Google maps - Street view:
https://maps.app.goo.gl/MWJktEng6sw99cAU8


Thanks
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Re: Westminster - 53c - Lower Belgrave Street - Multiple PCNs (5)
« Reply #1 on: »
Just accessed. Darn it: they have fixed the wording problem due to this case 2240202635 which I represented.



« Last Edit: May 21, 2024, 02:06:14 pm by Hippocrates »
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IF YOU RECEIVE A MOVING TRAFFIC PCN PLEASE READ THIS BEFORE MAKING A REPRESENTATION:

https://www.ftla.uk/the-flame-pit/moving-traffic-pcns-missing-mandatory-information-the-london-local-authorities-a/msg102639/#msg102639


How do we get more people to fight their PCNs?

https://www.ftla.uk/the-flame-pit/how-do-we-get-more-people-to-fight-their-pcns/msg41917/#msg41917

If you do not even make a challenge, you will surely join "The Mugged Club".

I am not omniscient. cp8759 and mrmustard are true geniuses. I know my place in the hierarchy of The Three Musketeers. 😊 "The Clinician", "The Gentleman" and "The Showman"

My e mail address for councils:

J.BOND007@H.M.S.S.c/oVAUXHALLBRIDGE/LICENSEDTOEXPOSE.SCAMS.CO.UK

Last mission accomplished:

https://www.ftla.uk/the-flame-pit/southwark-to-r
Re: Westminster - 53c - Lower Belgrave Street - Multiple PCNs (5)
« Reply #2 on: »
Access should be fine now.
I'll have a look at the link you sent.
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Re: Westminster - 53c - Lower Belgrave Street - Multiple PCNs (5)
« Reply #3 on: »
They have fixed the wording as per my edited post.
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IF YOU RECEIVE A MOVING TRAFFIC PCN PLEASE READ THIS BEFORE MAKING A REPRESENTATION:

https://www.ftla.uk/the-flame-pit/moving-traffic-pcns-missing-mandatory-information-the-london-local-authorities-a/msg102639/#msg102639


How do we get more people to fight their PCNs?

https://www.ftla.uk/the-flame-pit/how-do-we-get-more-people-to-fight-their-pcns/msg41917/#msg41917

If you do not even make a challenge, you will surely join "The Mugged Club".

I am not omniscient. cp8759 and mrmustard are true geniuses. I know my place in the hierarchy of The Three Musketeers. 😊 "The Clinician", "The Gentleman" and "The Showman"

My e mail address for councils:

J.BOND007@H.M.S.S.c/oVAUXHALLBRIDGE/LICENSEDTOEXPOSE.SCAMS.CO.UK

Last mission accomplished:

https://www.ftla.uk/the-flame-pit/southwark-to-r
Re: Westminster - 53c - Lower Belgrave Street - Multiple PCNs (5)
« Reply #4 on: »
That's a shame.

What would you say is my best shot at cancelling all but the first PCN?

Could you comment on these 2 arguments to appeal the PCNs?

A] Signage is inadequate because there is only 1 sign to indicate the pedestrian and cycle zone. Whereas we can see they put 3 signs indicating a contraflow cycle lane.
In addition there is no sign indicating camera enforcement. Although not a legal requirement I understand it is considered best practice to use such signs.

B] Lack of timely notification. Had I been made aware of the first contravention in a timely manner, I would have taken immediate steps to avoid repeating the offense. The delay (13 days) in issuing and delivering the initial PCN deprived me of the opportunity to rectify my actions and avoid further contraventions.

Thanks
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Re: Westminster - 53c - Lower Belgrave Street - Multiple PCNs (5)
« Reply #5 on: »
Can you give us links to the videos pl.

From the few photos I've seen, you were practically on top of the road sign on each occasion - the road is not wide at this point - and given that your approach required you to comply with Give Way road markings anyway, IMO you would be hard pushed to convince an adjudicator that you didn't see the sign which seems to stand in the clear, uncluttered by any fixed obstructions.

Others are better equipped to advise on what approach might work regarding the proportionality of so many penalties given the circumstances you claim existed.
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Re: Westminster - 53c - Lower Belgrave Street - Multiple PCNs (5)
« Reply #6 on: »
I know it sounds far-fetched. There is indeed nothing obstructing the sign.
I even had a hard time believing I didn't see that sign as well, multiple times...

I think what happened is that when I approached the give way, the large bicycles signs on the road surface attracted my attention (it makes sense because it is what they are there for). So I was looking down and not ahead. And upon crossing the junction, conscious that I should expect cyclists, we can clearly see in the videos that I turned my head right and left to watch out for any cyclists. And by the time I look straight ahead again I am indeed right in front of the pedestrian and cycle lane sign, which is now too high for me to see, especially wearing a helmet.


The videos are on the council's PCN website with the pictures.
https://appeals.westminster.gov.uk/pcnonline/

I also saved them here:
https://drive.google.com/file/d/11EBEODeY9bJwMuJYLp51pMqrFqlvL81P/view?usp=drive_link
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1K-mBHK-DyQA4l5vs8VNdxYWeJHGPNF3C/view?usp=drive_link
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1fv4gFdRw8sh-rvOFWSu2knPTGSlgtFLq/view?usp=drive_link
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1T2mKoACyWGWuiyb83Aq1CMK_4p-G3Kbc/view?usp=drive_link
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1qeB2pe5TnY3pGugMPGWP_CqA3vYmC4a6/view?usp=drive_link


Thanks
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Re: Westminster - 53c - Lower Belgrave Street - Multiple PCNs (5)
« Reply #7 on: »
Your argument "B" has succeeded in the past in getting those PCNs served before you became aware of the offence when the first PCN arrived, cancelled. HOwever, it has invariably meant going to London Tribunals, thus putting the full PCN penalties in play. 

I think maybe the best way to handle this is to submit reps explaining why you missed the sign and to request that they cancel the PCNs dated after PCN 1, but which only arrived after the date that PCN 1 was received by yourself.

Others on here may suggest other approaches, but it seems clear to me that visibility of the signs, (lack of),  is not a particularly strong appeal point.
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Re: Westminster - 53c - Lower Belgrave Street - Multiple PCNs (5)
« Reply #8 on: »
Thanks, I will put forward argument B and cross my fingers/prepare my cheque book.
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Re: Westminster - 53c - Lower Belgrave Street - Multiple PCNs (5)
« Reply #9 on: »
@user_1234 I don't think this wording is right:



It implies that whether you challenge the PCN or not, you must pay it before the end of the 28 day period or else a charge certificate could be issued. This could induce some people to pay the charge before they have received a response from the council, at which point the council would no longer bother to respond and the right to appeal would be lost, as there would be no rejection to appeal against.

It really should say "If the penalty charge is not paid or challenged before the end of the period of 28 days..."

Also Westminster's website lends itself to another technical challenge that @mrmustard has recently identified, but that argument needs to be kept in reserve for the tribunal.

The council will almost certainly reject your representations, it's only at the tribunal that you get a fair hearing, but we can help you with that.
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I practice law in the Traffic Penalty Tribunal, London Tribunals, the First-tier tribunal for Scotland, and the Traffic Penalty Tribunal for Northern Ireland, but I am not a solicitor or a barrister. Notwithstanding this, I voluntarily apply the cab rank rule. I am a member of the Society of Professional McKenzie Friends, my membership number is FM193 and I abide by the SPMF service standards.

Quote from: 'Gumph' date='Thu, 19 Jan 2023 - 10:23'
cp8759 is, indeed, a Wizard of the First Order
Re: Westminster - 53c - Lower Belgrave Street - Multiple PCNs (5)
« Reply #10 on: »
Thank you for pointing this out @cp8759.
I was actually about to make representation online now.

Also, on the PCN it keeps mentioning "14 days" or "28 days" which I understood as calendar days.
But when I look at my first PCN (WE5072962A, date of notice 13th May) on Westminster's website it shows:

"The amount outstanding on the Penalty Charge Notice will increase to £130.00 on Tue, 4 Jun 2024. Please pay £65.00 now."

So it seems like "14 days" or "28 days" are actually business days.
The absence of "calendar"/"business" specification is quite confusing. Could that be ground for appeal?
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Re: Westminster - 53c - Lower Belgrave Street - Multiple PCNs (5)
« Reply #11 on: »
@user_1234 the reference to 14 and 28 days is a reference to calendar days, but if the council website gives you more time than that I can't see how that would help. If the council website gave you less time than the legal minimum of course that would change things.

For now post a draft representation on here so we can review it for you.
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I practice law in the Traffic Penalty Tribunal, London Tribunals, the First-tier tribunal for Scotland, and the Traffic Penalty Tribunal for Northern Ireland, but I am not a solicitor or a barrister. Notwithstanding this, I voluntarily apply the cab rank rule. I am a member of the Society of Professional McKenzie Friends, my membership number is FM193 and I abide by the SPMF service standards.

Quote from: 'Gumph' date='Thu, 19 Jan 2023 - 10:23'
cp8759 is, indeed, a Wizard of the First Order
Re: Westminster - 53c - Lower Belgrave Street - Multiple PCNs (5)
« Reply #12 on: »
This is the link to my draft representation. I appreciate any comments and suggestions.

https://docs.google.com/document/d/1lT-AtN-VRXoHbgfVgOyMJ_HTEGWeEcgK/edit?usp=sharing&ouid=108295571129680083579&rtpof=true&sd=true


Thanks for your help.
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Re: Westminster - 53c - Lower Belgrave Street - Multiple PCNs (5)
« Reply #13 on: »
Take out point 4, the council will not accept it and you don't want to forewarn them about technical arguments to be deployed at the tribunal.

Other than that I think it's very solid.

If you're going to include links, look at Strategy 2 described here: https://www.ftla.uk/civil-penalty-charge-notices-(councils-tfl-and-so-on)/l-b-waltham-forest-50r-performing-a-prohibited-turn/msg7581/#msg7581

You will need to use a URL shortener which a stats facility, or I can set up shortened links for you.
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I practice law in the Traffic Penalty Tribunal, London Tribunals, the First-tier tribunal for Scotland, and the Traffic Penalty Tribunal for Northern Ireland, but I am not a solicitor or a barrister. Notwithstanding this, I voluntarily apply the cab rank rule. I am a member of the Society of Professional McKenzie Friends, my membership number is FM193 and I abide by the SPMF service standards.

Quote from: 'Gumph' date='Thu, 19 Jan 2023 - 10:23'
cp8759 is, indeed, a Wizard of the First Order
Re: Westminster - 53c - Lower Belgrave Street - Multiple PCNs (5)
« Reply #14 on: »
I uploaded my representation online for my 5 PCNs.
(I took out point 4 and added short URLs with a counter as per strategy 2.)

Will post the outcome when I hear from the council.
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