3. Westminster - 11u non payment of parking charge - Brook Street
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Westminster - 11u non payment of parking charge - Brook Street
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Hi,

I was in Westminster and found a street parking space. There was a sign with a QR code to scan which I did, it took me to pay-by-phone.co.uk

I put in the location code and car details and set it for two hours. This was at about 14:25. The page told me that two hours was the same at 12 hours 35 minutes and came up to £0. I went back and tried it again for 1 hour or 3 hours and it kept giving the same end time and £0 cost. I clicked to proceed and put in my card details and it asked me to input an OTP. However I did not receive any OTP to my phone. I tried again with a different card and again it didnt work. At that point I was running very late for my appointment and just left it. When I returned, I saw I had received a PCN.

Has anyone experienced anything similar? Is there any grounds for appealing this?

Thanks

Mo

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Re: Westminster - 11u non payment of parking charge - Brook Street
« Reply #1 on: »
rooke Street seems to be one where the google car was on foot.
So you can't see the signs.
Somewhere round here but please pinpoint if you can.
https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@51.5128176,-0.1479526,3a,75y,93.53h,80.01t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1seXET00jcXga42Pi-XGGxjw!2e0!7i16384!8i8192?entry=ttu
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Re: Westminster - 11u non payment of parking charge - Brook Street
« Reply #2 on: »
I looked at the previous GSV view, (November 2022) and was more successful.  Here is what I think is one of the bays on that street. This one is opposite Claridges.

You can see the Pay-to-Park sign below the main sign : -
https://maps.app.goo.gl/faPhgYhPkRzrFwFd7
However, the PtP sign won't zoom so it's readable unfortunately.

If you decide to take them to London Tribunals, the first thing an adjudicator is going to ask is, why didn't you follow the instructions on the main sign, once Pay-to-Park didn't work ?
« Last Edit: October 17, 2023, 06:35:46 pm by cp8759 »
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Re: Westminster - 11u non payment of parking charge - Brook Street
« Reply #3 on: »
The place I parked was here I think
https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@51.512484,-0.1496862,3a,67.3y,162.57h,98.1t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sOhJQwL-Xbgk8o4k_94bYMg!2e0!7i16384!8i8192?entry=ttu

The QR code was there on the sign and clearly said to use that to park. Phoning is usually a much longer or more complicated option, so I used the QR code. I have no idea what Wesminster's policies are - I don't believe I have parked in Westminster in the last 15 years. I always travel to town by underground - its much quicker - and only took the car this time as I have breathing problems and was on my way to a doctors appointment for that very reason, and getting there and back on the underground would be too tiring for me. So when the website told me that there was n0 cost and I could park there for 12 hours and 35 minutes at no cost, I assumed parking payments were not in force for some reason at that location. As I said, I rechecked my details - car and location and it kept giving me the same message. Even though it was asking for payment of £0 it still seemed to want me to put in my card details, which I assumed I needed to do, so I attempted to do so three times. The OTP didn't arrive and at that time I was already running late for my appointment so I had to go. I assumed that as it was £0 cost anyway, hopefully it wouldn't matter that I hadn't finalised the parking process.

Regards

Mo
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Re: Westminster - 11u non payment of parking charge - Brook Street
« Reply #4 on: »
Quote from: mothepro on October 16, 2023, 10:27:44 pm
Phoning is usually a much longer or more complicated option, so I used the QR code.
Maybe so, but you can't ignore the instructions on the sign simply because you're in a hurry, so you're on the back foot with this one.

I take it you didn't think of using screen recording software to document the problems you were having?

Did the OTP ever arrive?
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I practice law in the Traffic Penalty Tribunal, London Tribunals, the First-tier tribunal for Scotland, and the Traffic Penalty Tribunal for Northern Ireland, but I am not a solicitor or a barrister. Notwithstanding this, I voluntarily apply the cab rank rule. I am a member of the Society of Professional McKenzie Friends, my membership number is FM193 and I abide by the SPMF service standards.

Quote from: 'Gumph' date='Thu, 19 Jan 2023 - 10:23'
cp8759 is, indeed, a Wizard of the First Order
Re: Westminster - 11u non payment of parking charge - Brook Street
« Reply #5 on: »
Unfortunately I did not record it - I don't usually use a smartphone and only take it on occasion for navigation, but I am not familiar with how to record screens.

We did actually get an OTP for one of the attempts a little later which I still have. Can that help in any way?
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Re: Westminster - 11u non payment of parking charge - Brook Street
« Reply #6 on: »
Quote from: mothepro on October 17, 2023, 07:35:18 pm
We did actually get an OTP for one of the attempts a little later which I still have. Can that help in any way?
Yes! Yes it can!

Can you upload a screenshot of the OTP message?
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I practice law in the Traffic Penalty Tribunal, London Tribunals, the First-tier tribunal for Scotland, and the Traffic Penalty Tribunal for Northern Ireland, but I am not a solicitor or a barrister. Notwithstanding this, I voluntarily apply the cab rank rule. I am a member of the Society of Professional McKenzie Friends, my membership number is FM193 and I abide by the SPMF service standards.

Quote from: 'Gumph' date='Thu, 19 Jan 2023 - 10:23'
cp8759 is, indeed, a Wizard of the First Order
Re: Westminster - 11u non payment of parking charge - Brook Street
« Reply #7 on: »
The other point to note is that the contravention is for failure to pay the parking charge, but you did pay. Time is always allowed to obtain a parking ticket or session. The only argument is it taking 15 minutes, which in the circumstances seems reasonable enough, especially as the charge allowed parking all day, so you never ran out of parking time.
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Re: Westminster - 11u non payment of parking charge - Brook Street
« Reply #8 on: »
Quote from: Incandescent on October 18, 2023, 09:18:16 am
The other point to note is that the contravention is for failure to pay the parking charge, but you did pay. ..........

That's what was going through my mind, £0 to pay and you paid £0 seems to be correct.
But they may be translating failure to register parking as failure to pay or there may be a charge and the issue was with the pay by phone app?
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Re: Westminster - 11u non payment of parking charge - Brook Street
« Reply #9 on: »
I am attaching a copy of the OTP received

Thanks

Mo

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Re: Westminster - 11u non payment of parking charge - Brook Street
« Reply #10 on: »
Quote from: mothepro on October 18, 2023, 07:14:36 pm
I am attaching a copy of the OTP received

Thanks

Mo

Hi, sorry to 'bump' this. Just wondering if there is anything I can do with this OTP?

Thanks

Mo
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Re: Westminster - 11u non payment of parking charge - Brook Street
« Reply #11 on: »
Quote from: mothepro on October 16, 2023, 07:35:31 pm
There was a sign with a QR code to scan which I did, it took me to pay-by-phone.co.uk
Have there been any unauthorised transactions on your card?

I ask because upon checking https://www.westminster.gov.uk/parking/parking-fees-and-charges it says this:



It looks like you have been a victim of this, the real PayByPhone site is https://www.paybyphone.co.uk/ rather than pay-by-phone.co.uk (which while a good copy at first sight, is clearly a scam).

While it is very unfortunate, it is ultimately not your fault and I don't think the council should be penalising you for this. Perversely, if there have been any unauthorised transactions that would help your case. In any event I suggest you cancel your bank card and order a new one.
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I practice law in the Traffic Penalty Tribunal, London Tribunals, the First-tier tribunal for Scotland, and the Traffic Penalty Tribunal for Northern Ireland, but I am not a solicitor or a barrister. Notwithstanding this, I voluntarily apply the cab rank rule. I am a member of the Society of Professional McKenzie Friends, my membership number is FM193 and I abide by the SPMF service standards.

Quote from: 'Gumph' date='Thu, 19 Jan 2023 - 10:23'
cp8759 is, indeed, a Wizard of the First Order
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Re: Westminster - 11u non payment of parking charge - Brook Street
« Reply #12 on: »
WOW. Thank you so much for alerting me to this.
I will check the card as you suggested.

Thanks!

Mo
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Re: Westminster - 11u non payment of parking charge - Brook Street
« Reply #13 on: »
Good spot CP... I had read that but didn't put two and two together.

Does likely mean that the PCN is valid and that there was a charge which wasn't paid.
Can only suggest that you explain to Westiminster and ask for them to use their discretion to cancel, use whatever you have such as the OTP and if available any other info on your phone to show.
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Re: Westminster - 11u non payment of parking charge - Brook Street
« Reply #14 on: »
Quote from: DancingDad on October 20, 2023, 10:15:52 am
Good spot CP... I had read that but didn't put two and two together.

Does likely mean that the PCN is valid and that there was a charge which wasn't paid.
I'm not so sure. Yes it's not the council's fault, but if the QR code was over the top of the actual payment instructions, and it appeared legit, it seems to me that there wasn't adequate guidance to motorists as to the effect of the traffic order.

After all, if the signs and payment instructions had simply been vandalized / spray painted over such that payment could not be made, the motorist would normally not be deemed to be in contravention, as it is for the council to provide adequate guidance. I don't see why the fact that the vandals in this instance are scammers would make any difference. This is rather different from people paying the CC or ULEZ charges on a scam website, because the authority is not responsible for providing web search results on a motorist's web browser, but it is responsible for providing signage telling motorists how to pay.

If a motorist sees an apparently legitimate sign saying scan this QR code, that is very different to going online and paying the congestion charge charge to http://pay-this-scammy-website-for-cheap-congestion-charge-scam.com

@mothepro did you find any unauthorised activity on your card? Have you contacted the bank to cancel your card and order a new one?
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I practice law in the Traffic Penalty Tribunal, London Tribunals, the First-tier tribunal for Scotland, and the Traffic Penalty Tribunal for Northern Ireland, but I am not a solicitor or a barrister. Notwithstanding this, I voluntarily apply the cab rank rule. I am a member of the Society of Professional McKenzie Friends, my membership number is FM193 and I abide by the SPMF service standards.

Quote from: 'Gumph' date='Thu, 19 Jan 2023 - 10:23'
cp8759 is, indeed, a Wizard of the First Order
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