Author Topic: Waltham Forest, suspended parking bay, PCN/towing  (Read 121 times)

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towedaway26

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Waltham Forest, suspended parking bay, PCN/towing
« on: April 01, 2024, 09:06:09 pm »
Someone kindly recommended I cross-post this from PePiPoo, so apologies if it's a duplication for anyone - the thread there is http://forums.pepipoo.com/index.php?showtopic=153769

We visited family in Walthamstow last weekend (22nd-24th March) and, arriving in the dark late on Friday night, completely missed the sign about parking being suspended in a few bays on the street to allow access for a removal van the following day. When we went out the next morning our car was gone, and two others parked in the same row had PCNs and tow warning signs on them - I assume it was our bad luck that they took our car first and then came back for the others, or we might have got there in time to just have the PCN. I completely accept that I was parked in a suspended bay, but I feel the signage alerting to the suspension was inadequate given that it was a massive change from the norm for that street. Do I have grounds to contest the PCN/towing based on that? It came to a total of 265 (65 for the PCN, 200 for the tow), so not small change!

GSV link to the spot in question:
https://maps.app.goo.gl/4w5NJBa3TNTz2pfp7

I was parked pretty much where the black car in this link is, there was another car behind me (to the right of the picture, where the white car is on street view) that was still within the bay. The suspension sign was attached to the lamppost that's behind the white car, so outside numbers 18/20.  Walking up and down the street in daylight I didn't see any other notices about the parking suspension, though I have no photographic evidence of this. 

Here are (hopefully!) photos of the sign, and the paperwork from Waltham council.










Thanks for reading, and for any advice!
« Last Edit: April 01, 2024, 09:10:36 pm by cp8759 »

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cp8759

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Re: Waltham Forest, suspended parking bay, PCN/towing
« Reply #1 on: April 01, 2024, 09:50:59 pm »
Well let's start by turning the PCN the right way round:



Unfortunately there was a sign right behind your car:





Was there one here? https://maps.app.goo.gl/GRAjCrpgsbd8tB32A

Obviously you've paid all there is to pay, so there's nothing to be lost in taking this all the way to the tribunal.

I will also get hold of the suspension logs.
« Last Edit: April 01, 2024, 09:53:35 pm by cp8759 »
I am not on the "motorists's side", nor am I on the "police/CPS/council's" side, I am simply in favour of the rule of law. Section 6 of the Interpretation Act 1978 applies to everything I post as it would apply to an Act of Parliament. I am a Conservative councillor, this means some people think I am "scum". I am not a lawyer.

Quote from: 'Gumph' date='Thu, 19 Jan 2023 - 10:23'
cp8759 is, indeed, a Wizard of the First Order

towedaway26

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Re: Waltham Forest, suspended parking bay, PCN/towing
« Reply #2 on: April 01, 2024, 10:31:28 pm »
Thank you, sorry, still getting to grips with image uploading.

I don't have any photo evidence as it didn't occur to me at the time, but I walked up and down the street several times in the daylight the following day and did not see a second sign outside number 32 - and I was looking by that point!  Believe me I've kicked myself repeatedly for not noticing the one behind the car (the angled photo in daylight makes it look especially bad!).  It's a poor excuse I know, but we arrived in the dark after a 3 hour drive and, having parked on the street many times before I know the permit schedule so didn't specifically look at the signs.  Not a mistake I'll ever make again, if nothing else.
« Last Edit: April 01, 2024, 10:33:55 pm by towedaway26 »

cp8759

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Re: Waltham Forest, suspended parking bay, PCN/towing
« Reply #3 on: April 01, 2024, 11:30:57 pm »
We'll get evidence of where the signs were put in the first first place, so don't worry too much about that.

In which direction did you walk after you got out of the car?
I am not on the "motorists's side", nor am I on the "police/CPS/council's" side, I am simply in favour of the rule of law. Section 6 of the Interpretation Act 1978 applies to everything I post as it would apply to an Act of Parliament. I am a Conservative councillor, this means some people think I am "scum". I am not a lawyer.

Quote from: 'Gumph' date='Thu, 19 Jan 2023 - 10:23'
cp8759 is, indeed, a Wizard of the First Order

Incandescent

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Re: Waltham Forest, suspended parking bay, PCN/towing
« Reply #4 on: April 02, 2024, 12:59:42 am »
Being towed and having to pay a rather large sum at the pound to get the car back is one of those situations where it is a total no-brainer to appeal the matter all the way, because you've paid all there is to pay, so you are tryng to get it all back. The tow does seem disproportionate, but I think you'll struggle with the PCN, but hey, lets see what happens at London Tribunals.  You're in good hands here BTW.

towedaway26

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Re: Waltham Forest, suspended parking bay, PCN/towing
« Reply #5 on: April 02, 2024, 05:40:22 pm »
In which direction did you walk after you got out of the car?

Around the front to unload stuff from the passanger side, and then down the road towards the A112 end, rejoining the pavement after the planters that mark the no entry one-way stretch - so I did pass the lamppost with the sign on, albeit with parked cars between it and me. 

Being towed and having to pay a rather large sum at the pound to get the car back is one of those situations where it is a total no-brainer to appeal the matter all the way, because you've paid all there is to pay, so you are tryng to get it all back. The tow does seem disproportionate, but I think you'll struggle with the PCN, but hey, lets see what happens at London Tribunals.  You're in good hands here BTW.

That was how I viewed it, it's a nothing to lose but time sort of situation, but I've never persued an appeals process like this before. Getting the tow back but not the PCN would still count as a massive win in my book! My gripe with what I perceive to be  poor signage was in part based on my home council area who generlly mark parking suspensions with cones as well as multiple signs, but I realise now that is them being thorough rather than a requirement. If the signage is deemed adequate then I won't begrudge the PCN fee as I was, after all, parked where I shouldn't have been. 

cp8759

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Re: Waltham Forest, suspended parking bay, PCN/towing
« Reply #6 on: April 03, 2024, 12:02:52 am »
The grounds of appeal you've been given are incorrect, the 15 vs 30 minute period information was changed in May 2023 so there is only a 15 minute period now, there are also other minor issues with the grounds information.

The deadline for representations is 19 April so let's not rush but let's also make sure not to miss that. If I get the suspensions back in time I'll post them up the day I get them.

Did you look for any signs or did you just assume it would be OK to park?
I am not on the "motorists's side", nor am I on the "police/CPS/council's" side, I am simply in favour of the rule of law. Section 6 of the Interpretation Act 1978 applies to everything I post as it would apply to an Act of Parliament. I am a Conservative councillor, this means some people think I am "scum". I am not a lawyer.

Quote from: 'Gumph' date='Thu, 19 Jan 2023 - 10:23'
cp8759 is, indeed, a Wizard of the First Order

towedaway26

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Re: Waltham Forest, suspended parking bay, PCN/towing
« Reply #7 on: April 03, 2024, 11:20:24 am »
Did you look for any signs or did you just assume it would be OK to park?

Yes, I looked to check I'd put the correct start time on the permit - they're the sort where you scratch off the start time and date - but it was one on the opposite side of the road slightly further down the street that I looked at this time, you can just see it here:

https://maps.app.goo.gl/bLMDvSSAN7EQ8rj59
« Last Edit: April 03, 2024, 05:57:45 pm by cp8759 »

cp8759

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Re: Waltham Forest, suspended parking bay, PCN/towing
« Reply #8 on: April 03, 2024, 06:10:03 pm »
Legally only the signs for the particular bay count, signs on the other side of the road or for a different bay on the same side of the road don't count, you know for next time.

Here's something you can use if we don't get the suspension logs back before the deadline:

Dear London Borough of Waltham Forest,

I would like to challenge liability for PCN FR61970085 because the alleged contravention did not occur. It appears not all signs within the vicinity of my vehicle were carrying a parking suspension sign, and I believe this partly contributed to the fact that I missed the suspension.

Furthermore I contend there has been a procedural impropriety, as the information sheet I was given does not correctly reflect the provisions of The Removal and Disposal of Vehicles Regulations 1986 as amended by The Civil Enforcement of Moving Traffic Contraventions Designations and Miscellaneous Amendments Order 2022, which in turn is a failure to comply with regulation 11(2)(a) of The Civil Enforcement of Road Traffic Contraventions (Representations and Appeals) (England) Regulations 2022.

In light of the above the penalty charge must be cancelled.

Yours faithfully,
I am not on the "motorists's side", nor am I on the "police/CPS/council's" side, I am simply in favour of the rule of law. Section 6 of the Interpretation Act 1978 applies to everything I post as it would apply to an Act of Parliament. I am a Conservative councillor, this means some people think I am "scum". I am not a lawyer.

Quote from: 'Gumph' date='Thu, 19 Jan 2023 - 10:23'
cp8759 is, indeed, a Wizard of the First Order

towedaway26

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Re: Waltham Forest, suspended parking bay, PCN/towing
« Reply #9 on: April 04, 2024, 04:08:51 pm »
Thanks, should I send that now or give it a bit longer?  And is it worth adding in something about the fact that the car was taken to the pound rather than moved to another space on the street that it had a valid permit for? 

cp8759

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Re: Waltham Forest, suspended parking bay, PCN/towing
« Reply #10 on: April 05, 2024, 12:07:24 am »
Personally I'd wait a bit, you must not miss the deadline, but you're not in a massive rush either and you could wait till the week commencing on the 15th just in case the suspension logs come back before that.

The fact that they towed the car is not really material, once they've served the PCN they're entitled to tow the car immediately.
I am not on the "motorists's side", nor am I on the "police/CPS/council's" side, I am simply in favour of the rule of law. Section 6 of the Interpretation Act 1978 applies to everything I post as it would apply to an Act of Parliament. I am a Conservative councillor, this means some people think I am "scum". I am not a lawyer.

Quote from: 'Gumph' date='Thu, 19 Jan 2023 - 10:23'
cp8759 is, indeed, a Wizard of the First Order

cp8759

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Re: Waltham Forest, suspended parking bay, PCN/towing
« Reply #11 on: April 10, 2024, 03:27:34 pm »
Parking suspension logs:

Application form:



Suspension sign installation log:


Suspension sign removal log:


VRM log:


Photos:












I would stick with the current draft and we can develop the arguments at the tribunal, but helpfully the evidence above shows that there was only one suspension sign.
I am not on the "motorists's side", nor am I on the "police/CPS/council's" side, I am simply in favour of the rule of law. Section 6 of the Interpretation Act 1978 applies to everything I post as it would apply to an Act of Parliament. I am a Conservative councillor, this means some people think I am "scum". I am not a lawyer.

Quote from: 'Gumph' date='Thu, 19 Jan 2023 - 10:23'
cp8759 is, indeed, a Wizard of the First Order

towedaway26

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Re: Waltham Forest, suspended parking bay, PCN/towing
« Reply #12 on: April 14, 2024, 07:06:20 pm »
Wow cp8759, I had no idea you could get so much information, thank you.  I'll send the first email tomorrow.  Unless you think it would be detrimental I would like to add something about the fact that the car was taken to the pound rather than moved to an empty space; from what I've read and has been mentioned elsewhere my understanding is that councils are encouraged to act with sensible moderation in these things.  I do realise this is moving from hard and fast legalities to the much vaguer realm of morals though!

Incandescent

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Re: Waltham Forest, suspended parking bay, PCN/towing
« Reply #13 on: April 14, 2024, 08:25:40 pm »
Morals ? Ethics ? Probity ? Are you kidding ? These people are just dessicated calculating machines !