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The PCN ref number and vehicle reg haven't come through, please could you repost?  Without these we can't interrogate the video evidence.

Thanks for your reply
pcn ft64722658
Plate LS55WCU

It was my brother driving I was the black car behind and only he received a pcn I did not get one
It's definitely wrongly issued as we are allowed to stay in a yellow box to turn right

As you were stationary for at least 4 seconds and the whole of the rear axle plus overhang was within the box then IMO a claim of 'de minimis' would fail. Therefore, this is the exemption upon which you are relying:

3) The prohibition in sub-paragraph (1) [stopping in a box junction] does not, in respect of a box junction within sub-paragraph (6)(a) of the definition of that expression[your type], apply to a person who—

(a)causes a vehicle to enter the box junction for the purpose of turning right; and

(b)stops the vehicle within the box junction for so long as the vehicle is prevented from completing the right turn by an oncoming vehicle or other vehicle which is stationary whilst waiting to complete a right turn.

IMO, a strict interpretation based solely on the wording could mean you're in a no-win situation. The oncoming traffic had ceased to impede your manoeuvre, therefore this defence isn't available, and the other vehicle had already completed its right turn, albeit that it hadn't left room for you to exit the box.

Let's hope there's wording from successful adjudication decisions on this dilemma which can be replicated in your reps. If not, then IMO you should focus on a broad interpretation of 'other vehicle...waiting to complete a right turn'.

Wait for other views.

I lost the case I put on twitter.

I watched the cctv on the Waltham Forest website.

The white car is ignored as it exited the box even though when it entered there was half a moving bus in the way.

The black car behind it entered when the exit space was blocked (freeze the cctv just as its wheels cross the line to prove this) and then it had to stop so was in contravention despite turning right. The idea is that the box becomes clear when the lights go red again and that because the exit is clear the cars which were queued up when turning right could get out the way before the other way goes green. If there is no space when you enter, the idea of the box, free flowing traffic, is frustated.

Given that you knew the car in front they wouldn't have been upset if you had gone close to them up the inside and got out of the box but that is to be wise after the event.

I would, if there is no other argument, pay the 50%

(I don't understand this explanation - It was my brother driving I was the black car behind and only he received a pcn I did not get one - as the car which got the PCN is LS55WCU, the black car)

Any help in what I can write to them?

In reply number 3 you gave us FT64722658 and LS55WCU (you meant FR not FT). That is the vehicle which clearly has the PCN as I used the council website to watch it.

The black car behind, which I hadn't concerned myself about as it didn't get a PCN doesn't appear in the video until later and the camera operator, who appears to be a human, not a computer, has already selected an allegedly contravening vehicle to focus on.

Although the black car making its entry isn't shown we know that the exit was well and truly blocked to overflowing. If you haven't got a PCN you have been very lucky as you were 100%, in my view, in contravention.

I'm not going to give you any words to write (which experts don't generally do, they give you the ground and expect you to take it from there) as I think LS55WCU should pay the 50%.

If I am wrong about this and the thread has been hard to follow, start a new thread for the black car if the keeper has been issued with a PCN and see if any other expert thinks you have a hope in hell (you will gather that I don't).





(There was an error in my earlier post when I said 'black car' by which I meant the dark blue one - anyway the first car behind the white car. - Did you know that Guinness is dark red?)