Author Topic: Greenwich Borough PCN Meantime Brewery 31J Blackwall Ln  (Read 473 times)

0 Members and 4 Guests are viewing this topic.

Re: Greenwich Borough PCN Meantime Brewery 31J Blackwall Ln
« Reply #15 on: »
Why not?
We could all do it.
Alongside helping gmoney with their PCN.

I am willing to to put my credentials, such as they are, on the line.
« Last Edit: May 23, 2026, 09:57:28 pm by astralite »

Re: Greenwich Borough PCN Meantime Brewery 31J Blackwall Ln
« Reply #16 on: »
Case from yesterday.

-------


Case reference   2260035795
Appellant   xxxxx
Authority   Royal Borough of Greenwich
VRM   CE03JXC
PCN Details
PCN   GR24373405
Contravention date   16 Nov 2025
Contravention time   14:57:00
Contravention location   Blackwall Ln / Meantime Brewery
Penalty amount   GBP 160.00
Contravention   Entering and stopping in a box junction
Referral date   -
Decision Date   23 May 2026
Adjudicator   Gerald Styles
Appeal decision   Appeal allowed
Direction   
cancel the Penalty Charge Notice.

Reasons   
A yellow box is not unenforceable on the ground that one of the two roads where they meet and the box is laid is private. I believe Tendoc Rd is.

The appellant's written case to tribunal on this aspect of his case sets out relevant legislation correctly. The important point in this appeal is not whether Tendoc Rd is private or adopted highway. It turns on public access to Tendoc Rd.

When the Meantime Brewery was in operation the public may have had access via the Tendoc Rd to brewery premises. I have seen on the internet it did once have brewery tours but they have ceased and I have inferred from the cctv clip it was at the material time a development site gated so that there is no public access. Very likely there would have been some security at site access points to prevent public entering at will. Whatever may have been the historical position justifying earlier enforcement of the yellow box and its status, I have not been satisfied by the evidence in this appeal that the box when the appellant was recorded driving was one at a junction of roads where a yellow box contravetion can be said to occur.

In short I have seen insufficient evidence to conclude the alleged contravention occurred.

Given my above remarks about the box and evidence I need not write further about other aspects of the appeal case.
Like Like x 1 View List

Re: Greenwich Borough PCN Meantime Brewery 31J Blackwall Ln
« Reply #17 on: »
IMO,

The regs provide in part:

(6) For the purposes of this paragraph “box junction” means an area of the carriageway where the marking has been placed and which is—


(a)at a junction between two or more roads;

(b)at a gyratory system or roundabout;

(c)along a length of a two-way road (other than at a junction), the carriageway of which is not greater than 4.5 metres wide at its narrowest point; or

(d)on the length of road adjacent to the vehicular entrance to the premises of a fire, police or ambulance station


I would refer to (a) and (d).

If the draughtsman/parliament had intended that ANY vehicle crossover could be considered as a 'road' and therefore meet the requirements of (a), then (d) is redundant.

But it's there.

IMO, any correct and purposeful interpretation of the regulation means that 'road' relates to carriageways. By this measure, the vehicle access crossover here cannot be considered as a carriageway to which the public have a right to drive on (as opposed to over) therefore it cannot be construed as being a road.

On this basis, IMO the markings do not meet the requirements of para. 11(6) of Schedule 9 to the TSRGD and therefore the contravention did not occur.

The markings also don't extend for the full width of the crossover!
Like Like x 1 View List

Re: Greenwich Borough PCN Meantime Brewery 31J Blackwall Ln
« Reply #18 on: »
gmoney - you haven't posted for a while, but the consensus on here is you have a strong case.

Let us know how you'd like to proceed and we can assist with drafting something for you if you like.

Re: Greenwich Borough PCN Meantime Brewery 31J Blackwall Ln
« Reply #19 on: »
Hi team

You've all been very wonderful; irritatingly the fact that this thread had generated a page 2 had escaped me, so now having gone through the process I'm only just seeing this now!

The initial appeal was refused, on the grounds of essentially 'we think this is a road', which was to be expected. I've logged my appeal with London Tribunals, and put together a long list of reasoning that will have been far more cack handed than whatever you guys would have written, included all the above info RE legality of the box junction + what constitutes a road legally.

Thanks for linking the most recent case; I shall include that in my evidence, and keep you all abreast of any developments!

I was tempted to add a little something at the end about finding it poor that Greenwich borough know that this is an illegal box yet leave it there, but resisted

Re: Greenwich Borough PCN Meantime Brewery 31J Blackwall Ln
« Reply #20 on: »
You can update your appeal wording close up to the actual appeal date.

If you post what you've written here we can maybe refine it for you.

Re: Greenwich Borough PCN Meantime Brewery 31J Blackwall Ln
« Reply #21 on: »
Case 2260035795 is compelling and Greenwich must have seen it, so you can put them on notice that you will seek costs if they contest. 
Agree Agree x 1 View List

Re: Greenwich Borough PCN Meantime Brewery 31J Blackwall Ln
« Reply #22 on: »
Here we are:

Further information about the appeal: In accordance with the London Local Authorities and Transport for London Act 2003, my challenge is on the basis that the contravention did not occur as detailed in the points below.
1. According to “The Traffic Signs Regulations and General Directions 2016” “the location of the “box junction” means an area of the carriageway where the marking has been placed and which is
• (a) at a junction between two or more roads;
• (b) at a gyratory system or roundabout;
• (c) along a length of a two-way road (other than at a junction), the carriageway of which is not greater than 4.5 metres wide at its narrowest point; or
• (d) on the length of road adjacent to the vehicular entrance to the premises of a fire, police or ambulance station

However the box junction at this location on Blackwall Lane does not satisfy any of these conditions. (b), (c) and (d) clearly do not apply.
(a) is not applicable for the following reasons:
• As noted in the Location on the PCN itself, the junction is immediately outside a private business “Meantime Brewery”. As per a photo from Google Street view, this entrance is not a road, but rather the entrance to a business.
• Immediately behind the gate is an additional sign “No Public Access”

• In addition, the gate is locked at the time of the alleged offence, so this is not a road with public access and confirms the usage of this entrance as that to a private business.
• According to Section 192 of the road traffic 1988 a road has a definition of “any highway and any other road to which the public has access”. This is clearly an entrance to a deliveries yard, not a road. I've included an image of the closest turning, 'Mauritius Road', which looks like a road, is a road, and is sign posted as a road. Therefore it would be reasonable to expect a box junction there. It's not reasonable to expect one outside meantime brewery, which makes the existing box junction overly punitive, especially in the context of the offence, which was a slow but steady stream of traffic in the dark over a box in an extremely unusual location. This is not a junction, and should be marked with a Keep Clear sign. In the evidence provided, it can also be seen there is no street lighting, and the box, whilst visible from the camera, was not so from the ground

All this is less relevant however than the sheer fact that a yellow box can only legally be placed at a junction between two roads. The entrance to Meantime Brewery is locked with no public access, so clearly is not a public highway and therefore not a road. Schedule 9, Part 7, 11 (6) of the TSRGD 20016 sets out the permitted locations for yellow boxes. In addition Section 192 of the road traffic 1988 defines a "road" as: “any highway and any other road to which the public has access”. This location does not meet any of these criteria and it is thus an illegal yellow box.

3. The length of time when my car was stationary was precisely 6 seconds and given the entrance at this point on the carriageway was closed, no obstruction or possible obstruction took place. This length of stationary time and the fact no obstruction to other vehicles took place means this PCN is therefore not reasonable.
Regarding the 1st ground for appeal, the adjudicator in a PCN 2220655535 at Addiscombe Road, Croydon as detailed on the London Tribunals Environment and Traffic Adjudicators has noted that a junction with a private business/entrance does not quality as a junction under these regulations.
Regarding the 3rd ground for appeal, the adjudicator in a PCN 216036762A at Kingston Rd, Merton as detailed on the London Tribunals Environment and Traffic Adjudicators has noted that 7 or 8 seconds can just about be said to be nominal or de minimis and therefore not warranting a contravention.
In summary, this is clearly an illegally placed Yellow Box, and the PCN is both extremely punitive by the nature of no reasonable driver expecting it to be there, and unenforceable

That's what I've gone for - not a seasoned PCN pro but hopefully carries the weight of the argument! But not precious, and more than happy to replace with something worded better if you guys feel that would be stronger

Re: Greenwich Borough PCN Meantime Brewery 31J Blackwall Ln
« Reply #23 on: »
Was that your initial challenge? Post their rejection.

If you are going to appeal to the tribunal I would cite the key case I posted as I can't see another adjudicator disagreeing with it and then add some bullet points to back it up.

Re: Greenwich Borough PCN Meantime Brewery 31J Blackwall Ln
« Reply #24 on: »
Initial challenge I just set out the legislation

The rejection stated

Having carefully considered your comments, we do not agree with this assertion. The yellow box marking in question is positioned at a junction where two or more roads meet... We are satisfied that the location meets this criterion. the marking is therefore lawful and has been correctly placed.

Aka computer says no

I believe the appeal is still processing, and the text can't be updated. I'd submitted it before checking on here and seeing the case you linked! But as above, it seems the text can be changed once the appeal has been processed, so I will update it with reference to that case when possible

Re: Greenwich Borough PCN Meantime Brewery 31J Blackwall Ln
« Reply #25 on: »
The NOR pl, all sides and only obscure your personal details.


Re: Greenwich Borough PCN Meantime Brewery 31J Blackwall Ln
« Reply #27 on: »
Thanks.

So the council agree that 'the layout and purpose of the markings are to prevent vehicles from stopping in the junction and thereby obstructing the flow of traffic.'

This could only refer to conflicting traffic flows.

But there aren't any

Therefore whether pedestrian access to the crossover means that it may be considered to be a road, the simple fact that with current boundary configurations there cannot be any movement of vehicles on this 'road' means that it NO LONGER fulfils the council's purpose, is redundant and IMO cannot be enforced.

Re: Greenwich Borough PCN Meantime Brewery 31J Blackwall Ln
« Reply #28 on: »
It's just a worthless template rejection.

Register a tribunal appeal and put the council on notice you will seek costs if they contest.

Re: Greenwich Borough PCN Meantime Brewery 31J Blackwall Ln
« Reply #29 on: »
I would add that the Meantime Brewery has been closed since 2024. Beer production moved to Chiswick.  The associated Tap Room bar is also closed and the site is derelict.

So not even an active private road.
« Last Edit: Yesterday at 02:58:58 pm by JoCo »